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Vietnam War The Battle for Vietnam. .

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  #181  
Old 29 Sep 17, 10:59
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Saigon fell a few months after my father died. As a little kid, watching Saigon fall was like living through my father's death all over again. Forty-some years later it hasn't much changed.

I guess that that's the difference between this Burns' work and their previous efforts like The Civil War: today there are millions of people walking around who remember Viet Nam, whose lives were impacted by Viet Nam, who participated in Viet Nam in one capacity or another. That's not at all the case with the Civil War: they all died decades ago. We can look dispassionately at the Civil War, we can swoon romantic over the Civil War; that's not an option with Vietnam. It's still too fresh, still too raw. It doesn't feel as if it will ever fully heal.
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  #182  
Old 29 Sep 17, 12:23
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Originally Posted by BF69 View Post
That doesn't mean he didn't do it (he most likely did), but it means the claim doesn't nearly rise to the level of 'truth'. I would argue that some reference to his alleged crimes should be made, but its a contestable point.
Erik Villard pointed me to an eyewitness account of one of the ARVN officers who apprehended this man before bringing him to General Loan and it rendered the version about him committing the heinous acts commonly attributed to him questionable. We have no supporting evidence that he had done such things, and at the same time a whole lot of evidence that indicated he had not.

In case you have not seen this, it is an excellent synopsis of this "backstory to the backstory to the story", with many sub-plots.

http://consilientinductions.blogspot...abel/Bay%20Lop

Last edited by altus; 29 Sep 17 at 12:34..
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  #183  
Old 29 Sep 17, 12:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
I'd first heard that Lem was a VC assassin from the photographer, Eddie Adams. In an interview that I saw in the 1980s he related what he knew of Lem, and expressed regret that anti-war protesters in the US didn't know what kind of person Lem was. Forgive me for not locating that piece now, but after considerable time on Google I had to give up. Failing that, here's some of Adams' views repeated by Wikipedia.
Adams wrote that he learned about Lem's alleged crimes a few days after the execution. He did not specify from whom, though.



Quote:
Therefore I am of the belief that Lem was, in fact, a terrorist, and that his summary execution was both justified and legal under the accepted rules of war.
Fair point. However he most likely did not commit the barbaric acts attributed to him as a "lesser known back story".
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  #184  
Old 29 Sep 17, 13:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altus View Post
Erik Villard pointed me to an eyewitness account of one of the ARVN officers who apprehended this man before bringing him to General Loan and it rendered the version about him committing the heinous acts commonly attributed to him questionable. We have no supporting evidence that he had done such things, and at the same time a whole lot of evidence that indicated he had not.

In case you have not seen this, it is an excellent synopsis of this "backstory to the backstory to the story", with many sub-plots.

http://consilientinductions.blogspot...abel/Bay%20Lop
With all due respect Altus...... A bloggers musings? whom admits no concrete evidence against the claims..........
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  #185  
Old 29 Sep 17, 13:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altus View Post
Adams wrote that he learned about Lem's alleged crimes a few days after the execution. He did not specify from whom, though.
Gen Loan and his men might have been preoccupied with other duties that day. :roplleyes:

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Originally Posted by altus View Post
Fair point. However he most likely did not commit the barbaric acts attributed to him as a "lesser known back story".
Quote:
In the morning of the second day of Tet, January 31st, 1968, when general Nguyen Ngoc Loan was leading a fierce fight near An Quang Pagoda in Saigonís Chinese quarter, two of his officers brought to him a communist cadre who had murdered many innocents in cold-blood in the past couple days. He was Captain Nguyen Van Lem, alias Bay Lop.

Minutes before he was captured, Bay Lop had killed a RVN policemanís wife and all of his family members including his children. Around 4:30 A.M., Nguyen Van Lem led a sabotage unit along with Viet Cong tanks to attack the Armor Camp in Go Vap. After communist troops took control of the base, Bay Lop arrested Lieutenant Colonel Nguyen Tuan with his family and forced him to show them how to drive tanks. When Lieutenant Colonel Tuan refused to cooperate, Bay Lop killed all members of his family including his 80-year-old mother. There was only one survivor, a seriously injured 10-year-old boy. . . . .

Nguyen Van Lem was captured near a mass grave with 34 innocent civilian bodies. Lem admitted that he was proud to carry out his unit leaderís order to kill these people. Lem was in his shorts and shirt. His arms were tied from the back. The pistol was still in his possession. General Loan executed Nguyen Van Lem on the spot.

"After 40 years of the Tet offensive in the VietNam War - Half of the truth deciphered," by Bai Tran, Ph. D., Viet Catholic News, 7 Feb 2008
- emphasis mine

The murder weapon, and a confession to boot.
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  #186  
Old 29 Sep 17, 19:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Saigon fell a few months after my father died. As a little kid, watching Saigon fall was like living through my father's death all over again. Forty-some years later it hasn't much changed.

I guess that that's the difference between this Burns' work and their previous efforts like The Civil War: today there are millions of people walking around who remember Viet Nam, whose lives were impacted by Viet Nam, who participated in Viet Nam in one capacity or another. That's not at all the case with the Civil War: they all died decades ago. We can look dispassionately at the Civil War, we can swoon romantic over the Civil War; that's not an option with Vietnam. It's still too fresh, still too raw. It doesn't feel as if it will ever fully heal.
--------------------
No doubt about that Slick. **** people still feel the after effects of the Un-Civil War today. But I agree totally with your comment about it being too soon to look at Viet Nam in any real way. Some of us may indeed want nothing but an unbiased look but the passions are still high and the participants both anti- war and those whom were actually in the war are going to distort it a little or a lot.
About 10 years ago I bought Phillip Caputo's book 13 seconds, about Kent State and with it came a DVD, the National Guard was apologetic and still grieved over Kent State but the protesters that were interviewed were pretty self righteous and had no regrets for burning down the ROTC building or the damage they did to small business's outside of the school before the shootings. What did the school or small business people have to do with VIet Nam?
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  #187  
Old 30 Sep 17, 17:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
With all due respect Altus...... A bloggers musings? whom admits no concrete evidence against the claims..........
Hi Jeff, my intention was not to convince you the guy was right. He simply had a body of evidence comfortably gathered in one place so you don't have to look far. You might want to cross-check them. You may draw your own conclusions, that's fine. But at least you shall know what to pay attention to.

Best,
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  #188  
Old 30 Sep 17, 18:00
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
The murder weapon, and a confession to boot.
Believe me, these accusations are made out of thin air. Just because a lot of people have been perpetuating it for years doesn't mean they were factual.

For a starter, you may want to look on the map where Lem was captured and where the family of Lt. Col. Nguyễn Tuấn was killed. That alone made the colorful account as if Lem was captured near the graves of his victims bogus.
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  #189  
Old 30 Sep 17, 22:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
I'd first heard that Lem was a VC assassin from the photographer, Eddie Adams. In an interview that I saw in the 1980s he related what he knew of Lem, and expressed regret that anti-war protesters in the US didn't know what kind of person Lem was. Forgive me for not locating that piece now, but after considerable time on Google I had to give up. Failing that, here's some of Adams' views repeated by Wikipedia.



Additionally, the report that I had linked to earlier quoted Lem's wife, as well as furnished his alias. Granted a source can fabricate those items, but no reputable author or journalist that I know woudl fabricate information like that. Therefore I am of the belief that Lem was, in fact, a terrorist, and that his summary execution was both justified and legal under the accepted rules of war.
Slick,

You seem to misunderstood my post, so I'll try again.

There is no dispute that Lem was VC and I didn't dispute that. There is no dispute that journalists (including Adams) were told by the ARVN & Loan (who was police) that Lem killed women & children and reported that he was suspected of that. I didn't dispute that either. I'm not even arguing that the execution wasn't justified under the circumstances.

What I did point out is that the only sources for the claim that Lem was responsible for those murders was the people who killed him. That remains 100% accurate. Flip that around & make the dead guy an American tell me if you'd treat it as 'the truth'. He was 'the enemy', but the particulars of what he did remain unclear.

Eddie Adams was a good guy - like the vast majority of journos in Vietnam. he did his best under often difficult circumstances. He arrived on scene very shortly before the execution that day, so he had no way to verify what he was told about Lem. No one did. Too much chaos. Those journos reported the information they were given honestly. That is fine, but that doesn't make it 'fact' and it doesn't compel us to treat it that way.

Personally I think Adams is far too charitable to General Loan. Not because of the execution - I don't have any great moral hangups about that under the circumstances. Its the stuff few people know that troubles me more. He stood over & is reputed to have murdered political opponents of his patron, Vice Premier Ky. Not communists or NLF stooges, but other Sth Vietnamese who might have wanted a more democratic or less corrupt government. In fact, he was so feared that the Vietnamese cameraman for one of the crews present that day refused to film the execution for fear of reprisal. Loan was also the key enforce for one of the biggest heroin smuggling rings in the world at that point, run by Ky. I'm sure you can work out where a lot of that heroin ended up. Given all of that Loan did fine. He got to live out his life in the US.
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  #190  
Old 30 Sep 17, 22:16
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Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
For a more balanced view I recommend:

Vietnam: A Television History https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UMTL-zQSYw
I am up to episode 7 of 11 and it is more World at War in quality then the KB & Co. one

Oh the irony.

When that TV show was first screened it was so severely attacked by right wing critics that PBS was forced to screen a 'response' made by right wing group Accuracy In Media. You could virtually cut & paste some of the criticisms of that show to current criticisms of the Burn series.

I'm not sure exactly what all this says about the 'balance' of either series, but I suspect it all says more about the critics than the shows themselves.
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  #191  
Old 30 Sep 17, 22:25
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
No doubt, no doubt. The "hawks" can no more take responsibility for the failure in Viet Nam than Erich Ludendorff could take responsibility for losing WW1, hence the "Stab in the Back" nonsense. Guess it's just human nature to blame some one else -- any one else -- rather than stand tall and face the music. Gen Harold Johnson, US Army Chief of Staff from 1964 to 1968, was one of the few who stood tall and faced the music: not only did he pepper Westmoreland with tough questions following Ia Drang, but Gen Johnson wrote hundreds, possibly thousands, of letters to the families of US soldiers KIA in Viet Nam, and was known to attend their funerals, at least in the Washington DC area. Precious few are the top echelon leaders willing to do anything like that.
There were a number of senior officers who raised serious concerns about the LBJ/Westmoreland strategy, but they were ignored until it was too late.

The problem with a lot of commentary about the outcome of the war is that people stake out immovable positions based on politics & emotion & then try to construct an argument around it. Its only necessary to encounter people who claim America 'won' the war in 1973 to understand that. The reasons why America failed are many, but at their base is a simple fact - it wasn't America's war to win or lose. That didn't make it impossible, but it meant that the paths to success were always dramatically more limited than Americans understood at the time or even understand now.

People seem to have a need to find 'heroes' and 'villains'. It isn't nearly that simple.
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  #192  
Old 30 Sep 17, 22:28
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Originally Posted by altus View Post
Erik Villard pointed me to an eyewitness account of one of the ARVN officers who apprehended this man before bringing him to General Loan and it rendered the version about him committing the heinous acts commonly attributed to him questionable. We have no supporting evidence that he had done such things, and at the same time a whole lot of evidence that indicated he had not.

In case you have not seen this, it is an excellent synopsis of this "backstory to the backstory to the story", with many sub-plots.

http://consilientinductions.blogspot...abel/Bay%20Lop
Interesting. Will give it a read.
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  #193  
Old 01 Oct 17, 09:14
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I have been looking for episodes 1-7. I started around the Kent State episode. In addition I have watched a netflix documentary on Vietnam detailing the 1975 evacuation of Saigon by the United States and South Vietnam forces amid a massive series of North Vietnamese military success.

The whole Saigon thing and South Vietnam reminds me of when the USSR officially left Afghanistan in 1989 after failing to achieve its aims in the Soviet Afghan war.. Its like the US failing in Vietnam being unable to keep down the communists well in Afghanistan the Afghan Communists and Soviets were not able to eliminate the ISIL mindset. Yet even after the Soviets officially withdrew from Afghanistan, many Afghan Communists held out against a well determined superior armed enemy wrt the Afghan Mujaheddin. The afghan Communists somehow held out for a few years without any notable USSR support. The feat of those Afghan Muslim Communists is impressive I would think to those who abhore the ISIL mindset. Ironically in Afghanistan it was the Communists fighting for freedom but in Vietnam it does seem it was the US and South Vietnam fighting for freedom.

Does anyone here know of reports of South Vietnamese soldiers being able to have success against the NVA forces in the aftermath of the offical US withdrawal in March of 1973? Of course by 1974 the fighting had resumed therefore negating the peace agreement from March of 1973 between North and South Vietnam. The Ken Burns documentary shows a rapid advance from 74-75 by the NVA forces , also showing South Vietnamese people running desperately and in a state of total panic amid the NVA push to Saigon. The Burns documentary does make some short mentions of success and resistance of the South Vietnamese people during the 74-75 time period but all in all the Burns doc(which btw I felt was well put together) shows a scared and desperate South Vietnamese people. So perhaps Burns wanted to show more of the plight of the South Vietnamese people who choose to flee instead of stay and fight..and thats not to be judgemental it takes alot to stay and fight and I have never been in a similar position as many South Vietnamese people were in 74-75. That said does anyone here have access to a documentary or book that dedicates itself to the resistance by South Vietnamese people in 1974-1975?
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  #194  
Old 01 Oct 17, 11:13
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In early 1970, while sitting around the team table (imbibing adult beverages) the subject of the shooting of the NVA infiltrator came up. ‘Ski, our senior NCO on the team, had been in country for two years and was with Rangers from the 52nd BDQ in Saigon during Tet. He said he was there when the picture was taken, and that Lem had killed a number of people, including some Rangers. It is unfortunate that both ‘Ski and Don Valentine, the Senior Advisor are both deceased. I wish I could remember more details of that conversation, but I suspect the adult beverages were not an aid to memory.
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  #195  
Old 02 Oct 17, 05:26
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How many Generals have lost a leg from a hit from a rifle bullet in close combat? If he was a white powder ming dealing boocoo skag why did he end his days making pizzas? It doesn't add up?
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