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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines

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Alternate Timelines The plausible "what if's" of military history.

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  #46  
Old 19 Sep 17, 01:33
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My bad , sorry and thanks for the enlightenment.
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  #47  
Old 19 Sep 17, 01:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The Butcher Bird did something no Allied fighter did, and that was gain air supremacy against British BoB veterans in their latest fighters. This was for about a year, and in WW2 an exceptional accomplishment, unfortunately by the wrong side.
When the Mk V had its wings clipped LF etc, it did just fine against the 190. The early Mk IX's was the remedy. The cure came with the later Mk IX (Mk VIII was even better in some ways which lent its airframe to the MK XIV) and XIV. And the Luftwaffe gained a superiority for few months, but then that was as good as a gasp of a drowning man.

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  #48  
Old 19 Sep 17, 03:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
When the Mk V had its wings clipped LF etc, it did just fine against the 190. The early Mk IX's was the remedy. The cure came with the later Mk IX (Mk VIII was even better in some ways which lent its airframe to the MK XIV) and XIV. And the Luftwaffe gained a superiority for few months, but then that was as good as a gasp of a drowning man.

Paul
I wouldn't want to be in any version of the Spitfire V vs the Fw 190. The IX's were a remedy, but for almost a year, the Fw 190 controlled the skies, and against British BoB veterans.
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  #49  
Old 19 Sep 17, 04:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
I wouldn't want to be in any version of the Spitfire V vs the Fw 190. The IX's were a remedy, but for almost a year, the Fw 190 controlled the skies, and against British BoB veterans.

Well Nick, I can only point you to to the LF Mk V. You can imagine what you like but the Luftwaffe had superiority for a few months but other than tip and run nuisance raids, they had no superiority over the channel. First the Luftwaffe tried it over the UK, then they tried it over the channel. They had a brief success in the skies behind the coast, but that was all. They started losing the air war in the west from September 1940.

Paul
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  #50  
Old 19 Sep 17, 07:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
Well Nick, I can only point you to to the LF Mk V. You can imagine what you like but the Luftwaffe had superiority for a few months but other than tip and run nuisance raids, they had no superiority over the channel. First the Luftwaffe tried it over the UK, then they tried it over the channel. They had a brief success in the skies behind the coast, but that was all. They started losing the air war in the west from September 1940.

Paul
The Spitfire lf V didn't debut until after the IX had arrived, and only useful at low levels. The Spitfire IX was the true answer but these did not arrive until Aug 42, a year after the Aug 1941 debut of the FW 190.

The Allies did not start winning the air war in Europe until after Operation Jubilee, ie with the introduction of the Spitfire IX and new tactics.
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  #51  
Old 19 Sep 17, 15:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The Spitfire lf V didn't debut until after the IX had arrived, and only useful at low levels. The Spitfire IX was the true answer but these did not arrive until Aug 42, a year after the Aug 1941 debut of the FW 190.

The Allies did not start winning the air war in Europe until after Operation Jubilee, ie with the introduction of the Spitfire IX and new tactics.
Stupid question from my end. Not that I want to get in the middle of an interesting debate.

If Allies were only winning the air war after Op JUBILEE, how did the Allies maintain effective air cover over the fleet and beaches during the operation? Would the use of the Hawker Typhoon be part of the answer to counter the FW 190?
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  #52  
Old 19 Sep 17, 15:30
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Another failing would be the US would still end up needing other types of fighters just as the RAF did. For example, the Spitfire was a poor choice for ground attack. It had little potential as a bomb hauler.
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  #53  
Old 19 Sep 17, 18:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

The Allies did not start winning the air war in Europe until after Operation Jubilee, ie with the introduction of the Spitfire IX and new tactics.
No! the Luftwaffe started losing from September 1940 and markedly so from the autumn of 1942.

Nick! You posted:

Quote:
I wouldn't want to be in any version of the Spitfire V vs the Fw 190.
And

Quote:
The Spitfire lf V didn't debut until after the IX had arrived, and only useful at low levels. The Spitfire IX was the true answer but these did not arrive until Aug 42, a year after the Aug 1941 debut of the FW 190.
I pointed you to an example that was good enough, Re the LF V.

Anyway, All the ongoing versions of the Spitfire that were used on the front line, were superior to the 190.

As an aside:

Here's a link to a discussion I remember about the Spitfire Mk IX V's Fw 190A on the WWII aircraft site....read it and look on in disbelief

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...v-fw-190a.542/

Paul
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  #54  
Old 20 Sep 17, 19:17
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Once you drop external tanks for better combat performance, better hope you have the internal full to do some of that and also get home.

The thing is that while the UK is perfecting the Spitfire, the USA is invested in changing the P-36 into the P-40, and tweaking the new prototypes of the P-38 and P-39, while Seversky~Republic is looking for a market of the P-35. All these type "pusuits"(interceptors/fighters) are rather gestated by the time of the BoB and we see how that design "shines". But still there are range, firepower, and ruggedness factors worked out in the USA designs enough to keep working those tracks, not to mention the UK orders for some since the UK can't produce enough Spitfires, or Hurricanes.

Short legs of the "basic" Spit suggest it saw the most use expected during the war with the USAAF and the USA designs; P-35~P-47, P-38, P-39, P-40, & P-51 better fitted USAAF Strategic thoughts and goals of aerial warfare for the era. They also better fitted the productioin investment in the USA and the minor pluses of the Spitfire didn't warrant the retooling costs, etc.

As a remninder, the P-51 evolved out of a UK specification for a "custom" fighter design they sought from USA manufacture while the USA was still "offcially" Neutral.
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Last edited by G David Bock; 20 Sep 17 at 19:24..
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  #55  
Old 20 Sep 17, 19:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
A number of US Fighters had a cannon onboard. The P-38, P-39 and P-64 come readily to mind. Besides, the US Fighter had moved on to the 50 Caliber Machine Gun which was considered adequate until we encountered the MiG 15 in Korea. The Ma Deuce had a much greater range and destructive effect over the 303 and 30 Caliber weapons. A mystery to many Americans is why the British did not go to the Browning 50 Caliber. I hear about 20 millimeter cannon on Corsairs but have yet to run into a model using them.

Pruitt
Consider that the goal is to put as much mass/metal as possible into a small space where the enemy aircraft "will be" and the fire-rate and slug size of the .50" from an M2-Ma Duece really fit the bill. With most of the MGs on USAAF and USN aircraft being the .50 M2 the ammo supply/logisitcs and mainenance issues were greatly simplified.

(Want to be on the receiving end of a B-25 Gunship shooting 16 x .50/M2 at you ???)
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  #56  
Old 20 Sep 17, 20:19
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
They could have, but I suspect the "Not Invented Here" syndrome goes both directions. The Boulton-Paul D Turret had 2 x .50 Brownings in it...
I think that "Bomber"Harris wanted them. Also an RAAF squadron added a battery of 4 X.50 Brownings to the hulls of their Sunderland Flying Boats.
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Old 30 Sep 17, 12:11
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If you don't mind going back to the original topic. here is another article about US Spitfires.


https://warisboring.com/americas-spitfires/
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