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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II > W. Allied Armor

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W. Allied Armor Discuss all non-Axis and non-Russian armor here. [seeking companion website on Allied Armor for this forum]

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  #136  
Old 15 Sep 17, 22:31
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Remember guys, the topic of this thread is British Cruiser Tanks of WW2; i.e. whether or not the concept could have been viable.
Everything from Cricket & Baseball to Wittman's Tiger being talked about recently.
Back on topic, please. Otherwise, the thread will be deemed to have outrun its usefulness and be dealt with accordingly.

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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 15 Sep 17 at 22:44..
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  #137  
Old 18 Sep 17, 16:32
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Everybody copied the British cruiser concept for their Armoured Divisions. They happened to use tanks called mediums instead. All AD's were to exploit a hole in the enemy line.

The difference was how the breach in the enemy line was created. The Germans became masters at punching through weak points in the enemy line with the Panzer Divisions early in the war, but as defensive lines thickened, another solution was needed to create the breach.

With a partial WW1 mentality, they had already had the concept of infantry tanks, to add to an infantry divisions offensive capability. The US used additional mediums in the same way, with independent tank battalions supporting ID's.

The Germans and Soviets thought differently, despite the fact that Nazi losses were so high that most afv's were being used to plug gaps in their line. Both wanted heavies, rather than lighter tanks, to support their initial attacks. In both cases AD's would be led by heavies, rather than ID's supported by infantry tanks or mediums. This has the advantage of maintaining initiative and momentum, since your exploitation force is at the cutting edge of your attack. If you succeed it can suddenly tear through the enemies line and fan out to take out the opponents infrastructure. If it fails, you will lose many of your best assets, such as the Germans at Kursk.

The Western mentality appears to be to make sure the breach can be made in the first place, while the dictatorships are looking for a sudden collapse of the enemy after the breach has taken place.

That said, the purpose of AD's have always been basically the same, regardless of nation, and whether you call tanks 'medium' or 'cruiser', they are essentially designed to fulfill the same role.

If I was to state a difference between the two, I would state cruisers went through a stage of real lack of armour protection. They started off okay with the A10, with up to 30mm, but went downhill with with subsequent cruisers until the Cromwell, which was a British Sherman in ability, if not appearance.

Cruisers and Mediums fulfill the same role in AD's, and thus the cruiser concept is valid. Different name, but same job.
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  #138  
Old 19 Sep 17, 16:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Everybody copied the British cruiser concept for their Armoured Divisions. They happened to use tanks called mediums instead. All AD's were to exploit a hole in the enemy line.

The difference was how the breach in the enemy line was created. The Germans became masters at punching through weak points in the enemy line with the Panzer Divisions early in the war, but as defensive lines thickened, another solution was needed to create the breach.

With a partial WW1 mentality, they had already had the concept of infantry tanks, to add to an infantry divisions offensive capability. The US used additional mediums in the same way, with independent tank battalions supporting ID's.

The Germans and Soviets thought differently, despite the fact that Nazi losses were so high that most afv's were being used to plug gaps in their line. Both wanted heavies, rather than lighter tanks, to support their initial attacks. In both cases AD's would be led by heavies, rather than ID's supported by infantry tanks or mediums. This has the advantage of maintaining initiative and momentum, since your exploitation force is at the cutting edge of your attack. If you succeed it can suddenly tear through the enemies line and fan out to take out the opponents infrastructure. If it fails, you will lose many of your best assets, such as the Germans at Kursk.

The Western mentality appears to be to make sure the breach can be made in the first place, while the dictatorships are looking for a sudden collapse of the enemy after the breach has taken place.

That said, the purpose of AD's have always been basically the same, regardless of nation, and whether you call tanks 'medium' or 'cruiser', they are essentially designed to fulfill the same role.

If I was to state a difference between the two, I would state cruisers went through a stage of real lack of armour protection. They started off okay with the A10, with up to 30mm, but went downhill with with subsequent cruisers until the Cromwell, which was a British Sherman in ability, if not appearance.

Cruisers and Mediums fulfill the same role in AD's, and thus the cruiser concept is valid. Different name, but same job.
Let me re write this a little .

Everybody copied the British cruiser concept for their Armoured Divisions. They happened to use tanks called mediums instead. All AD's were to exploit a hole in the enemy line.

The difference was how the breach in the enemy line was created. The Germans became masters at punching through weak points in the enemy line with the Panzer Divisions early in the war, but as defensive lines thickened, another solution was needed to create the breach.

With a partial WW1 mentality, the British had already created the concept of infantry tanks, to add to an infantry divisions offensive capability. The US used additional mediums in the same way, with independent tank battalions supporting ID's.

The Germans and Soviets thought differently, despite the fact that Nazi losses were so high that most afv's were being used to plug gaps in their line late in the war. Both wanted heavies, rather than lighter tanks, to support their initial attacks. In both cases AD's would be led by heavies, rather than ID's supported by infantry tanks or mediums. This has the advantage of maintaining initiative and momentum, since your exploitation force is at the cutting edge of your attack, and ready to pounce. If you succeed AD's can suddenly tear through the enemies line and fan out to take out the opponents infrastructure. If it fails, you will lose many of your best assets, such as the Germans failure at Kursk.

The Western mentality appears to be to make sure the breach can be made in the first place, while the dictatorships are looking for a sudden collapse of the enemy after the breach has taken place, ie looking good in the short term takes precedence over your own soldiers lives.

That said, the purpose of AD's have always been basically the same, regardless of nation, and whether you call tanks 'medium' or 'cruiser', they are essentially designed to fulfill the same role, ie exploitation of a rupture in the enemies line.

If I was to state a difference between the two, I would state cruisers went through a stage of real lack of armour protection. They started off okay with the A10, with up to 30mm, but went downhill with with subsequent cruisers until the Cromwell, which was a British Sherman in ability, if not appearance.

Cruisers and Mediums fulfill the same role in AD's, and thus the cruiser concept is valid. Different name, but same job.
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