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  #106  
Old 30 Aug 17, 16:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
And I should think that in you debating, that in fact you did find 'quality'. If I don't see anything worth debating, I move on. Something you clearly did not do. So please, (as with your other grandiose idea that Gaeilge words should only be used if conversing in Gaeilge) don't get all so superior!

Paul
"When in hole stop digging" never read that?
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  #107  
Old 30 Aug 17, 16:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
No
Really?

Quote:
When [Caesar's father-in-law] Piso brought Caesar's body into the Forum, a huge number of armed men gathered to guard it. It was laid with lavish pomp and cries of mourning on the rostra,note whereupon wailing and lamentation arose again for a long time, and the armed men clashed their weapons, and very soon people began to change their minds about the amnesty.note Then Marc Antony, seeing their state of mind, did not give up hope. He had been chosen to deliver the funeral oration as a consul for a consul, a friend for a friend, and a kinsman for a kinsman (being related to Caesar through his mother), and so he again pursued his tactic and spoke as follows. . . . .

In this inspired frenzy [Marc Antony] said much else, altering his voice from clarion-clear to dirge-like, grieving for Caesar as for a friend who had suffered injustice, weeping, and vowing that he desired to give his life for Caesar's. Then, swept very easily on to passionate emotion, he stripped the clothes from Caesar's body, raised them on a pole and waved them about, rent as they were by the stabs and befouled with the dictator's blood. At this the people, like a chorus, joined him in the most sorrowful lamentation and after this expression of emotion were again filled with anger.

After the speech, other dirges accompanied by singing were chanted over the dead by choirs in the customary Roman manner, and they again recited his achievements and his fate. Somewhere in the lament Caesar himself was supposed to mention by name those of his enemies he had helped, and referring to his murderers said as if in wonder,

To think that I actually saved the lives of these men who were to kill me.note

Then the people could stand it no longer. They considered it monstrous that all the murderers, who with the sole exception of Decimus [Junius Brutus] had been taken prisoner as partisans of Pompey, had formed the conspiracy when instead of being punished they had been promoted to magistracies, provincial governorships, and military commands, and that Decimus had even been thought worthy of adoption as Caesar's son.

[2.147] When the crowd were in this state, and near to violence, someone raised above the bier a wax effigy of Caesar - the body itself, lying on its back on the bier, not being visible. The effigy was turned in every direction, by a mechanical device, and twenty-three wounds could be seen, savagely inflicted on every part of the body and on the face. This sight seemed so pitiful to the people that they could bear it no longer. Howling and lamenting, they surrounded the senate-house, where Caesar had been killed,note and burnt it down, and hurried about hunting for the murderers, who had slipped away some time previously.

"History of the Civil Wars," by Appian of Alexandria, courtesy Livius-dot-org translated by John Carter
Does that not qualify as a mass riot -- a plebeian riot -- replete with significant political implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Yep, so Cromwell is a monster in Ireland and a hero in England. The truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't seek to cast him as a monster or assign motives to his actions beyond those which he offered himself. I am simply pointing our the consequences of his actions in Ireland.
They were the result of his well trained army, his military ability, his religious fundamentalism and his ruthless and/or bloodthirsty decisions etc. The existing civil war into which he entered and the general contempt with which poor people were treated just about everywhere at the time all acted to amplify those outcomes but it was him and his army which was the root cause.
I'm not trying to affix a moral value to Cromwell's career. To be honest, that's something that deserves its own thread, and I'll be happy to participate -- mostly to learn from those with greater knowledge. My point simply is that sometimes we have to question the motives of those who would revise history. Sometimes there's a real motive behind their work, and if we're to avoid being fooled, being played for chumps in the furtherance of some political a$$hole's agenda, then it behooves us to ask such unpleasant questions. For example were it that some one had asked such a question when Ludendorff's Stab in the Back mendacity was first broached.
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Last edited by slick_miester; 30 Aug 17 at 16:39..
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  #108  
Old 30 Aug 17, 16:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
"When in hole stop digging" never read that?
So who's digging?
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  #109  
Old 30 Aug 17, 17:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
So who's digging?
You
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  #110  
Old 30 Aug 17, 17:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
You
Well! perhaps you can show me the error of my ways? Seeing as in the past, I have helped you in yours.

Paul
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  #111  
Old 31 Aug 17, 05:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
And I should think that in you debating, that in fact you did find 'quality'. If I don't see anything worth debating, I move on. Something you clearly did not do. So please, (as with your other grandiose idea that Gaeilge words should only be used if conversing in Gaeilge) don't get all so superior!

Paul
It's all in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I, along with most Irish people, find the inclusion of my country in the politically loaded term "British isles" superior. We all have our sensitivities.
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  #112  
Old 31 Aug 17, 06:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
The amount I learn on a thread is proportional to the quality of the discussion offered by those with whom I am debating. Therefore no, thus far I haven't.
You appear not to have even read the sources you linked to.

I think you prefer Cromwell as Legend, as revealed in Irish 'history'

"A primary school teacher somewhere in Ireland faces a class of 11-year-olds. The teacher reaches for the textbook Earthlink 5th Class, published by Folens in 2004. On page 87 the following words are printed: ‘Cromwell captured Drogheda. About 3,000 men, women and children were killed.’ No ambiguity there. The teacher then picks up a second history book, Timeline, published by the Educational Company of Ireland in 2008, also on the school curriculum, and crosschecks.

A paragraph reads:

He [Cromwell] first laid siege to Drogheda. He was determined to make an example of the town. When he captured it he slaughtered the entire population."

http://www.historytoday.com/tom-reil...irish-question
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  #113  
Old 31 Aug 17, 07:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
You appear not to have even read the sources you linked to.

I think you prefer Cromwell as Legend, as revealed in Irish 'history'

"A primary school teacher somewhere in Ireland faces a class of 11-year-olds. The teacher reaches for the textbook Earthlink 5th Class, published by Folens in 2004. On page 87 the following words are printed: ‘Cromwell captured Drogheda. About 3,000 men, women and children were killed.’ No ambiguity there. The teacher then picks up a second history book, Timeline, published by the Educational Company of Ireland in 2008, also on the school curriculum, and crosschecks.

A paragraph reads:

He [Cromwell] first laid siege to Drogheda. He was determined to make an example of the town. When he captured it he slaughtered the entire population."

http://www.historytoday.com/tom-reil...irish-question
Here you go;

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  #114  
Old 12 Sep 17, 13:13
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I was in Glasnevin Cemetery in Dublin today.
There is a Memorial Wall erected to those who died in the 1916 rebellion.
It lists everyone who died alphabetically, be they IRA volunteers, Royal Irish Constabulary, British Army or civilian. It has been controversial but in my opinion it is a great way of depoliticising history. It was inspired by the international memorial near Arras in France that lists the names of 580,000 people killed in fighting on the western front in the First World War.
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