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Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

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  #1  
Old 15 Aug 17, 22:11
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Patriot missile performance against SCUDs

Can someone please share some evidence regarding the performance of Patriot missile against SCUDs during the 91 wAR
I have read such conflicting reports

thanks
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  #2  
Old 16 Aug 17, 04:24
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This link might help.

https://missilethreat.csis.org/system/patriot/

Quote:
During the 1991 Gulf War, the United States deployed PAC-2 interceptors to Israel and Saudi Arabia to counter the Iraqi arsenal of Scud missiles. The GAO concluded that there was evidence that nine percent of the engagements during the conflict could be conclusively considered “warhead kills,” where there was either evidence of Patriot fragments in the body of Scud missiles or radar evidence of debris from a destroyed Scud. However, the lack of certain equipment and inconsistent ground tracking contributes to significant uncertainty about the effectiveness of Patriots during the Gulf War.
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  #3  
Old 16 Aug 17, 09:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung Baby View Post
There was a Patriot battery (to protect the airport) in the car park of the hotel I was staying in . I remember hearing that there was the same problem that caused the abandonment of an British anti V2 system development in 1944/5. Given that both the V2 and the SCUD were ballistic it was relatively simple with adequate radar and computing elements to calculate the trajectory and the necessary interception trajectory in the V2 case for massed AA fire and with the SCUD a patriot missile but unless the incoming missiles warhead was destroyed a hit would not prevent an explosion when the incoming missile hit. It would alter where it hit but since both the V2 and the SCUD were far from accurate any way this merely altered the element of randomness but did not diminish or increase the degree. I was led to believe that a number of SCUDS were hit but the warhead not destroyed. These exploded in empty desert but whether this would have not still been the outcome if there had been no hit was impossible to say.
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Last edited by MarkV; 16 Aug 17 at 09:44..
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  #4  
Old 16 Aug 17, 09:43
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Patriots were not designed as anti-missile weapons, rather they were AAA tools. Faulting them for doing poorly in a job they weren't meant to do is disingenuous. There was a lot of that on the internet back then, of course.
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  #5  
Old 16 Aug 17, 18:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
There was a Patriot battery (to protect the airport) in the car park of the hotel I was staying in . I remember hearing that there was the same problem that caused the abandonment of an British anti V2 system development in 1944/5. Given that both the V2 and the SCUD were ballistic it was relatively simple with adequate radar and computing elements to calculate the trajectory and the necessary interception trajectory in the V2 case for massed AA fire and with the SCUD a patriot missile but unless the incoming missiles warhead was destroyed a hit would not prevent an explosion when the incoming missile hit. It would alter where it hit but since both the V2 and the SCUD were far from accurate any way this merely altered the element of randomness but did not diminish or increase the degree. I was led to believe that a number of SCUDS were hit but the warhead not destroyed. These exploded in empty desert but whether this would have not still been the outcome if there had been no hit was impossible to say.
Some Scuds were left untouched due to the calculations of their trajectory... if they were going to hit unpopulated regions the crew did not fire. The Scuds in 1991 were designed to explode next to the target, and let the fragments do the damage.
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  #6  
Old 18 Aug 17, 13:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung Baby View Post
Some Scuds were left untouched due to the calculations of their trajectory... if they were going to hit unpopulated regions the crew did not fire. The Scuds in 1991 were designed to explode next to the target, and let the fragments do the damage.
One landed precisely between the buildings that housed Saudi Aramco's seismic data, well files etc. If it had taken out either of them it would have severely affected production and caused major problems for a good deal of Western economies that relied on Saudi oil. This caused a major panic and a major project was initiated to get all those records digitised and a copy stored in Paris. My company was supporting Hewlett Packard who bid for this. It was awarded to a local company that put in a very low bid, failed to index all those millions of records properly. The job had then to be done all over again!
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Old 18 Aug 17, 17:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
One landed precisely between the buildings that housed Saudi Aramco's seismic data, well files etc. If it had taken out either of them it would have severely affected production and caused major problems for a good deal of Western economies that relied on Saudi oil. This caused a major panic and a major project was initiated to get all those records digitised and a copy stored in Paris. My company was supporting Hewlett Packard who bid for this. It was awarded to a local company that put in a very low bid, failed to index all those millions of records properly. The job had then to be done all over again!
Never time and money to do it right, but always time and money to do it over...
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Old 20 Aug 17, 18:50
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It never really engaged any Spuds during Desert Storm. What were shot down were sections of Scud missiles that broke while they coming down on target. Let's not forget that the Scuds was nothing more than a 1990s version of the V-2s the Nazis fired on London and Antwerp.
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Old 20 Aug 17, 19:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
It never really engaged any Spuds during Desert Storm. What were shot down were sections of Scud missiles that broke while they coming down on target. Let's not forget that the Scuds was nothing more than a 1990s version of the V-2s the Nazis fired on London and Antwerp.
That's one version of history.
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Old 20 Aug 17, 19:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
It never really engaged any Spuds during Desert Storm. What were shot down were sections of Scud missiles that broke while they coming down on target. Let's not forget that the Scuds was nothing more than a 1990s version of the V-2s the Nazis fired on London and Antwerp.
They would have sufficed in CW and TN role
Were wasted with conventional payloads except as a terror weapon
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Old 21 Aug 17, 16:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
That's one version of history.
And can you provide any evidence that it's not correct? I was underneath those incoming Iraqi Scuds and would love to know. facts please and not innuendo, every body knows that or what a man in the pub said please.
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Old 21 Aug 17, 17:25
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I remember there was a HUGE stink at the time, because the Patriot WAS touted as the finest ABM system in the world, and was supposed to offer total protection.

Obviously, this was hype, but the story that came out was that a, "Successful," interception was rewarded every time a Patriot warhead detonated.

Of course, at the time, the allies were attempting to stop the war from escalating (there was a real fear that Israel would become involved, at which time, all bets would be off), but there was a massive gap between propaganda and reality.

Whatever its virtues, the Patriot was an abject failure as an ABM system, but a lot rode on people not finding that out.
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Old 21 Aug 17, 17:48
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We were getting mixed messages.
a) Scuds were highly sophisticated and we should be very worried
b) Patriots were highly sophisticted and we had nothing to be worried about
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Old 21 Aug 17, 19:40
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The Patriot had a flaw in its internal clock that required a rounding each minute. It got worst and worst the longer the tracking radar was on. The Israelis discovered it early on, but the American commanders did listen to them at first.

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Old 24 Aug 17, 02:40
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I had an uncle who was with TF 8-43 ADA during the gulf war.
I not recall how much action he saw.
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