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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II

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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #46  
Old 23 Mar 17, 03:31
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The only Sherman tanks that stood a chance against the King Tiger were the Firefly variants which were armed with a 17 per antitank gun. The only other tanks that could "kill" the King Tiger were the M26 Pershing and the JS-2 Stalin.
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  #47  
Old 23 Mar 17, 16:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
The only Sherman tanks that stood a chance against the King Tiger were the Firefly variants which were armed with a 17 per antitank gun. The only other tanks that could "kill" the King Tiger were the M26 Pershing and the JS-2 Stalin.
That's not true, because war is not fair. When looking at the statistical analysis of combat, the various types of tanks fought against each other was not considered important with two wartime reports, either this or this.

This is because one tank will be defending and will normally be in ambush until the opponent can be dispatched. Tanks with weaker armament simply have to wait until the enemy is closer.
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  #48  
Old 23 Mar 17, 23:13
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Indeed, the Tiger II's Eastern Front debut with s.Pz.Abt.501 was inauspicious thanks to the T-34-85: Schneider quotes their combat diary on 12 August 1944: "The attack is stopped in the face of strong resistance. Only 8 tanks are operational. A hidden T-34/85 [sic] of the 53rd Guards Tank Brigade ambushes them near Obledo and knocks out several Tiger IIs (3 tanks are totally destroyed). The ammunition stowed inside the turrets causes fatal explosions, kililng many crewmembers. Following this, no 8.8-centimeter main-gun ammunition is stowed in the turret any more, reducing the stowage to 68 rounds."

For the Soviet perspective on this engagement, see here.
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  #49  
Old 29 Jul 17, 15:13
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Surely there had been many encounters between Panthers and
Shermans but setting aside german lack of spare parts,bad supply
system etc.,my point is that in normal battle conditions,meaning
when not handicapped by poor deployment,Panthers got better
of Shermans.Of course that if you hit a Panther or Tiger in the rear at point blank range you could make a kill.
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  #50  
Old 29 Jul 17, 15:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.panzer div. View Post
Surely there had been many encounters between Panthers and
Shermans but setting aside german lack of spare parts,bad supply
system etc.,my point is that in normal battle conditions,meaning
when not handicapped by poor deployment,Panthers got better
of Shermans.Of course that if you hit a Panther or Tiger in the rear at point blank range you could make a kill.
Your definition of "normal" is lacking. For the Germans "lack of spare parts,bad supply system" plus poor maintainability was normal
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  #51  
Old 03 Dec 17, 19:41
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Let's also not forget King Tiger Vs M26 Pershing as well as King Tiger vs M36 Jackson.
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  #52  
Old 03 Dec 17, 23:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
Let's also not forget King Tiger Vs M26 Pershing as well as King Tiger vs M36 Jackson.


Only about 20 U.S. M26 tanks made it into combat in the ETO. They didn't get into action until late February 1945.

The M36 Tank Destroyer was used by a good number of U.S. Tank Destroyer battalions starting in the fall of 1944.

So you can find a lot more combat actions by the M36.
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Last edited by 17thfabn; 04 Dec 17 at 09:42..
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  #53  
Old 04 Dec 17, 23:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.panzer div. View Post
Surely there had been many encounters between Panthers and
Shermans but setting aside german lack of spare parts,bad supply
system etc.,my point is that in normal battle conditions,meaning
when not handicapped by poor deployment,Panthers got better
of Shermans.Of course that if you hit a Panther or Tiger in the rear at point blank range you could make a kill.
I think that was more variable than you make it out to be. In many cases where Shermans met German armor they got the best of them because of superior communications and a better supporting organization of other units.

For example, in the Autumn battles around Nancy in France in late 1944, US tank units had the advantage of much better scouting and infantry units in terms of their ability to function as units and communicate. This meant that in a meeting engagement the Germans were almost always at a big disadvantage. The US tankers had a good idea where the Germans were, and where they were headed while the Germans usually had little clue about where and what they would run into.
This mean that US tankers could often maneuver their tanks to positions where they could attack the flank of a German column, and then withdraw before their own losses mounted.
Even in close actions, the US tankers often got the first rounds and hits in such actions as the Sherman's engagement time was often much better than the opposing panzer's. That is, the combination of turret rotation, gunner engagement sequence, and firing time were shorter meaning a round on target before the Germans could return fire. That is a huge advantage.
Sure, a Panther or Tiger could usually survive a frontal hit from a Sherman, but unless the crew were really good, just having that round smash into the tank would cause some degree of hesitation and confusion among the crew.
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  #54  
Old 06 Dec 17, 15:16
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I wonder how many tank destroyer units after WWII were reconfigured into tank units?
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  #55  
Old 06 Dec 17, 16:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
I wonder how many tank destroyer units after WWII were reconfigured into tank units?
Best guess? None.

After WWII, the American military forces went from eleven million to 1.5 million. The majority of wartime units were disbanded entirely. With no need for tank destroyers any longer, and no personnel to man additional armor units, the expedient thing was to simply stand down the TD unit and disband it entirely.
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  #56  
Old 09 Dec 17, 18:49
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Didn't Yugoslavia get some surplus tank destroyers from the U.S. and some had T-34 turrets on them and during Operation Allied Force in 1999 some of these were to be used as decoys to protect their T-72s in case of an Allied ground assault.
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