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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Weapons of War > Air Power

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Air Power A place to discuss the implements of War in the Air!

View Poll Results: Fighter aircraft for Finland for 2020->
Eurofighter 3 8.33%
Gripen NG 13 36.11%
Lightning II 3 8.33%
Rafale 3 8.33%
Super Hornet (Advanced?) 14 38.89%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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  #46  
Old 11 Jul 17, 21:56
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I agree. IMHO, either the smaller NATO states need to come together and jointly run an air force, allowing them combined to put together the logistical capabilities and ancillaries, or they need to accept a very small but generally capable air force.

Option 1: Pooling together, countries conspire to provide a combined Air Force that includes multi-role fighters, AWACs, Transport, and refueling missions.

Option 2: Buy a low end AWACs bird, like an E2, and also buy a cargo bird that can pull double duty as refueling, like the KC130.

For a country to basically demand that a contractor provide them with IFR capabilities is IMHO kind of cheesy.
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  #47  
Old 12 Jul 17, 02:01
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It might be hard for the various small countries to agree on who gets what. I remember when NATO had AWACS.

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  #48  
Old 12 Jul 17, 03:56
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The NATO AWACs are under some kind of sharing-scheme already iirc. So is heavy airlift capabilities.

That's one thing Sweden so far has foregone to do for itself — it's also part of the NATO heavy-airlift thing. (Sweden does do airborne radar for itself (the Eyrie Eye and Global Eye systems), and air-refueling, precisely using its C-130 "Herkules" machines for it.)
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  #49  
Old 12 Jul 17, 07:01
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It's clearly a buyer's market right now. There are too many companies pushing their machines, so now they have to offer very attractive deals, and not only on price, but all kinds of supplemental services it seems.
Indeed; through-life support and training is nothing new but the IP aspect is. OEMs now have to invest in target markets to a far higher degree and sacrifice much more. As I mentioned, see Brazil and the proposed Indian light fighter programmes with complete ToT and production in-country. The US retains the advantage of critical mass and support guarantee that others find it hard to match, though Sweden is better than most.

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SAAB just withdrew its bid for the Belgian procurement of new fighters. It seems the Belgians have made it a condition that IF you get to sell them these fighters, you are also contractually obliged to service them anywhere in the world, should Belgium chose to go to war there — including handling what air-refueling the Belgian air-force might need.
You have to provide through-life support and that includes [overseas] servicing, but that is so common now as to be irrelevant. I suspect Saab feel the F-35 will win and therefore it is not worth the investment.

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The NATO AWACs are under some kind of sharing-scheme already iirc. So is heavy airlift capabilities.
True, but in the case of AWACs they still belong to particular air forces; the sharing is the availability and the recompense. They are registered to a particular operator. It has been suggested that the Nordics or Baltics (and GCC) undertake something similar for various capabilities.
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  #50  
Old 12 Jul 17, 08:45
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Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
True, but in the case of AWACs they still belong to particular air forces; the sharing is the availability and the recompense. They are registered to a particular operator. It has been suggested that the Nordics or Baltics (and GCC) undertake something similar for various capabilities.
Sweden does for itself in that respect. Defense cooperation with Finland would make it available to the Finns as well.

Denmark, Norway and the Baltic states are NATO so that's a different kettle of fish. Though if they want an affordable airborne radar system, Sweden is selling.
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  #51  
Old 12 Jul 17, 08:54
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Sweden does for itself in that respect. Defense cooperation with Finland would make it available to the Finns as well.
Expensive to buy and operate; sharing with neighbours would help ameliorate the financials and provide mutually useful benefits to all.

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Denmark, Norway and the Baltic states are NATO so that's a different kettle of fish.
But there is the potential to cooperate and co-use aircraft given the similarities of local concern. Indeed, the Erieye and GlobalEye are ideally suited for non-deploying, sophisticated states concerned primarily with multi-level security concerns, which is much of North / East Europe

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Though if they want an affordable airborne radar system, Sweden is selling.
The GlobalEye costs a small fortune, as do all of these things. You are looking at $300-400m each (you probably need 3 to be useful) and that does not cover the long-term running or support infrastructure.
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