HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II

Notices and Announcements

Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 24 Oct 16, 04:58
broderickwells's Avatar
broderickwells broderickwells is offline
General of the Forums
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Auckland
Posts: 10,624
broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoPref View Post
The tactic definitely helps in tank vs tank "duels", but those were pretty rare in WWII. World of Tanks recreates a type of combat that pretty much didn't occur. (I don't think they've added AT guns and Infantry since I last watched some gameplay videos for amusement.) I'd call it an effective tactic for situations that rarely developed in WWII, so there was little or nothing lost by not adopting it.

Hull down positioning was much more useful. It's harder to spot you before you fire and you're a smaller target once you are spotted. It also protects the tracks from the weaker AT guns trying to immobilize you because they can't penetrate the armor. Soviet tanks could not depress their guns as much as other countries' tanks, so they have a harder time finding a good HD position.
Hull down in WWII was often achieved by either digging a revet to hide behind, or taking advantage of terrain features such as walls and rocks. It's a defensive tactic almost all armies used, especially if they could "control" the approach routes.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 24 Oct 16, 08:03
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is offline
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,120
MarkV is simply cracking [600]
MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Hull down in WWII was often achieved by either digging a revet to hide behind, or taking advantage of terrain features such as walls and rocks. It's a defensive tactic almost all armies used, especially if they could "control" the approach routes.
Used in both offensive and defensive by all sides in the Western Desert
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 10 Nov 16, 11:24
Pappy's Avatar
Pappy Pappy is offline
Sergeant Major
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: In southern Sweden.
Posts: 311
Pappy is on the path to success [1-99] Pappy is on the path to success [1-99] Pappy is on the path to success [1-99] Pappy is on the path to success [1-99] Pappy is on the path to success [1-99]
General Re-Cap of subjects.

Hulldown is a normal tactic. I believe its standard in all mature armies in WWII. If in feasible terrain you automatically look for a position of cover for the lower hull be a shallow depression in the terrain, reverse hill or direct obstacles as walls, buildings, elevated roads etc. Aim is to minimise the target area as much as possible. Its harder to locate and its harder to aim at.

Dug in tanks was, and is, common but is against most common sense, tactics and doctrines of educated tank commanders 1939 onwards. Usually it’s the last signs of a totally broken down army that lack fuel and leadership to conduct mobile battles. Once discovered, which they will, they are either taken out by air, artillery, bypassed or outflanked and shot out.
In the Gulf I the sand walls was not enough to protect a vehicle hence the Abrams with sabot rounds simply shot right through it up to 4km of range.
A dug in tank should not be confused with a tank that is dug in for shelter in the assembly area to avoid being detected or damaged by artillery.

Zig Zag patterns are seemingly normal at WWII “offensive tanks” firefights between 600-1400m (under 500 meters one side is assumed to already broken off combat due to casualties, below 300 most hits cause catastrophic damage limiting any crew survival). This to throw off enemy aim, and to a lesser degree avoid incoming projectiles. Remember the goal of tank vs tank combat is to keep distance to enhance your survival rate and take out the enemy using aim preferably at as a long range as you can possible penetrate your target (life is short in comparison for how long you are going to be dead).
At these distances there are at least 2-3 seconds of flight time before impact. At a medium attack speed of 8km/h aim will go off by half a meter per second. In comparison to a tank with relatively good crosscountry capability, to avoid damage to suspension and tracks in terrain while manoeuvring and still be able to spot enemy targets, the Panther attack speed was about 10-11km/h. Given to this it takes several seconds for the gunner to re-adjust aim of a tank that has moved. Zig zag patterns are also not always conducted in a moving fashion but contain “short stops” to fire the main gun.

Most gunners are trained to aim at specific parts of the tank and avoid angled deflection zones hence trying to get an enemy to fire on a negative angle is a waste of time. Within 800m you usually hit what you aim at if you are a trained gunner and the target standing still (most didn’t fire on moving targets at these times as it was considered a waste of ammo). If underpowered many try tracks, drive wheels (ruins breaks and transmission) or where the turret meets the hull where even dirt or a rifle bullet can jam the turret as a secondary consequence in case of non penetration taking it out of action.

Inside of the tank general infantry helmets don’t seem to be used as it restricts movement and radio communication although various soft protection was used. Hungarians however adopted cut out steel helmets for head sets due to armor issues on their assault guns. Outside tank there was regulation as far as the German Panzer korps to wear a steel helmet for tank crews (you usually see these helmets lining the sides or on engine deck of the vehicles).

Sorry to say but WoT is a fun tank arcade game. Though some time has been spent on trying to simulate ballistics its a waste due to the imaginative damage system. Everything else in the game as of mechanics are science fiction (as well as some 50-60% of the tanks pending on how you arm them).

/Pappy
__________________
"Charley Dont´t Surf."
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 10 Nov 16, 11:59
Bluenose's Avatar
Bluenose Bluenose is offline
Major General
UK
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Warwick
Posts: 2,581
Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200]
If people have not already read them, the 2 Robert Forczyk books on Eastern Front tank combat are very interesting as they combine an operational analysis with very tank-specific elements.
__________________
History is not tragedy; to understand historical reality, it is sometimes better to not know the end of the story.

Pierre Vidal-Naquet
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 11 Jan 17, 00:26
Whelm's Avatar
Whelm Whelm is offline
Private
Canada
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: ottawa
Posts: 11
Whelm is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by flash View Post
Some Sherman TCs would reverse into a hull down position with his turret trained rearwards so that he had all of his forward gears available when it's time to change FP.There's no reason why it could not be applied to any tank.
Perhaps you could game this on WoT.
The British Archer TD consisted of a rear facing 'fixed' 17 pdr on a Valentine chassis and was designed with the above tactic in mind.

The diagonal facing you mention would be useful but only if you were aware of in which direction the ATK threat was from, for instance; When appearing at a gap in a hedge or top end of an urban street, otherwise there is likely an ATK out on one flank or another, still worth trying though I don't think it was instilled in training, probably something the tanker picks up along the way.
The Americans had been working on a high speed reverse transmission for the Shermans for some time, before the war ended it was slated to go into production on new vehicles coming off the lines. The war ended and the need for them as well so they never got them.

Apparently they worked quite well, more efficient then the regular transmission and it provided not quite but close to full speed reverse as forward gears.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 20:51.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.