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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

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  #271  
Old 23 Jan 15, 12:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
There is plenty of various references possibles.
Of which you have offered none, just ad hominem attacks instead.

Quote:
It doesn't suffers from low morale more than other armies. The only times it can be true it's during deep restructurations which is not common events.
The original thesis here was that in 1946 the Soviet Army would still be a veteran, battle hardened force facing demoralized conscripts in the Western armies.
That is not accurate.

Quote:
It's a tradition not something linked to the military or in relation to morale.
Drug use in the US military is not tradition. Alcohol use in any military to the point of serious drunkenness is not traditional either.
But, these things are often associated with poor morale and general living conditions in militaries.

Quote:
Google zampolit. Also google how the number of communists and komsomolets increased during the war.
Registered Communists increased during the war due almost entirely to the troops knowing that by doing so if they were killed their name, etc., would be taken down and next of kin etc., notified. Non party members didn't receive that attention.

Quote:
And ? It's linked to the losses. It also says nothing about the determination and morale of those men.
And morale. Troops with poor health, mental conditions, past criminal histories, among others have more performance issues than troops without those problems. Add in for the Soviets units with men that don't speak a common language...
Digressing for a moment: I saw that last one personally and repeatedly in the USN with Filipinos who enlisted. Poor language skills, insulated grouping, favoritism among themselves, and the like. They were often referred to as "The Philippine Mafia."

... that the lack of ability to communicate, having vastly different social and educational backgrounds, will all cause serious morale problems as well.

Quote:
Soviet army went down from 12 839 000 to 2 900 000 in 1949 which is even lower than before the war. Considering the territory to protect, there is nothing of exceptionnal in this number.
Except again with the original thesis this is not supposed to happen and that the remaining troops are mostly long term veterans. The reality is that among the enlisted side almost none of them were long term veterans. Those guys got out and conscripts replaced them, same as the pre-war Red Army.
The postwar Soviet Army was also trying very had to come up to Western standards in terms of organization, technical skills, and motorization. Dropping the marginal units like un-motorized rifle and cavalry divisions and eliminating horses was a smart move. But, given where the Soviets were at in late 1945 they had a long way to go to get to their goal.
One way the Soviets worked towards this was to snatch up all the captured and civilian motor vehicles they could across Eastern Europe. Certainly their own motor industry was insufficient to provide enough new vehicles to make up for ones lost from wear and tear and allow for rapid new expansion of use.
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  #272  
Old 23 Jan 15, 12:53
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Quote:
Of which you have offered none, just ad hominem attacks instead.
There is a lot of then on Internet going from short stories to books. Really not hard to find.

http://iremember.ru/
Quote:
The original thesis here was that in 1946 the Soviet Army would still be a veteran, battle hardened force facing demoralized conscripts in the Western armies.
That is not accurate.
They were veteran in 1946 apart new recruits of course.
Quote:
Drug use in the US military is not tradition. Alcohol use in any military to the point of serious drunkenness is not traditional either.
But, these things are often associated with poor morale and general living conditions in militaries.
Those who were in the state of serious drunkenness, usually didn't stayed long on their posts. The situation in this domain is certainly not exceptional nor it reflects something regarding morale. During the WWI there was prohibition in Russia which doesn't prevented a low morale in the army.

Quote:
Registered Communists increased during the war due almost entirely to the troops knowing that by doing so if they were killed their name, etc., would be taken down and next of kin etc., notified. Non party members didn't receive that attention.
Wat ?


Quote:
And morale. Troops with poor health, mental conditions, past criminal histories, among others have more performance issues than troops without those problems. Add in for the Soviets units with men that don't speak a common language...
Digressing for a moment: I saw that last one personally and repeatedly in the USN with Filipinos who enlisted. Poor language skills, insulated grouping, favoritism among themselves, and the like. They were often referred to as "The Philippine Mafia."

... that the lack of ability to communicate, having vastly different social and educational backgrounds, will all cause serious morale problems as well.
And why they should have past criminal histories, mental conditions and others ? Recrutement from Asian and Caucasian nations was stoped in 1943 which partially solved the problem. This issue was solved in the next years so there is no reason to belive that it was unworkable.

Quote:
Except again with the original thesis this is not supposed to happen and that the remaining troops are mostly long term veterans. The reality is that among the enlisted side almost none of them were long term veterans. Those guys got out and conscripts replaced them, same as the pre-war Red Army.
The postwar Soviet Army was also trying very had to come up to Western standards in terms of organization, technical skills, and motorization. Dropping the marginal units like un-motorized rifle and cavalry divisions and eliminating horses was a smart move. But, given where the Soviets were at in late 1945 they had a long way to go to get to their goal.
One way the Soviets worked towards this was to snatch up all the captured and civilian motor vehicles they could across Eastern Europe. Certainly their own motor industry was insufficient to provide enough new vehicles to make up for ones lost from wear and tear and allow for rapid new expansion of use.
Who are enlisted men ? Sergents and others ? If the army stays mobilized then they will also stay mobilized.
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  #273  
Old 23 Jan 15, 18:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsar View Post
Loath as I am to get into this may I point out that absent the B29 and atomic weapons the West would have kept more troops (and probably better disciplined ones) in Germany to prevent just this scenario from happening.
It was politically impossible to even slow up demobilization. The abysmal failure of the botched process after WWI was still in everyone's mind. No one trusted the government and the Bonus Army fiasco was still very much in the military's mind set as well. Eisenhower personally designed the demobilization himself and even though it was incredibly fast there were still riots and mutinies in both the US and GB military, fairly large and very publicized ones.

Truman and others tried slow it up for just some of the reasons you mentioned but they could not do it even though they tried. The veteran troops were coming home and nothing besides a full out invasion was going to prevent that. Their replacements were fewer and were trained to be policemen.

The JCS and Truman could no more stop the demobilization than the could have prevented a declaration of war after Pearl Harbor. It was a political impossibility.

Last edited by hairog; 23 Jan 15 at 18:54..
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  #274  
Old 24 Jan 15, 22:43
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Quote:
Aber:

I have no problem with Alternate History, just unsupportable claims that your story is a completely realistic representation of what would have happened. Removing US atomic weapons and strategic air power may make a more interesting story but it still relies on an ASB called Sergei, and lack of a western reaction to major changes such as no Soviet demobilisation.
Giulio Douhet, Hugh Trenchard, Billy Mitchell, Boeing, Ford, Einstein, Van Brown and of course Oppenheimer couldn't possibly have been real and with an imagination like yours are obviously ABS.

Definably Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, Truman and of course Stalin, were all brought into history to make a good story. Truth is much stranger then fiction. Why can’t Sergo be the Billy Mitchell of the USSR. Why couldn't there have been a Sergo?

The answer is plain, there is no reason and it’s not ABS. He is no superman, no magician he is only equal to a Mitchel, Ford, Boeing, Oppenheimer or Van Brown.

Here's proof Sergo existed. That's him with Stalin.

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  #275  
Old 24 Jan 15, 23:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
Giulio Douhet, Hugh Trenchard, Billy Mitchell, Boeing, Ford, Einstein, Van Brown and of course Oppenheimer couldn't possibly have been real and with an imagination like yours are obviously ABS.

Definably Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, Truman and of course Stalin, were all brought into history to make a good story. Truth is much stranger then fiction. Why can’t Sergo be the Billy Mitchell of the USSR. Why couldn't there have been a Sergo?

The answer is plain, there is no reason and it’s not ABS. He is no superman, no magician he is only equal to a Mitchel, Ford, Boeing, Oppenheimer or Van Brown.

Here's proof Sergo existed. That's him with Stalin.

Sure, Sergio could be the "Billy Mitchell" of the USSR. He too could put publicity and personal goals ahead of real useful effort. He too could come up with a non-strategy that is proved wrong.
Or, like Ford fail several times before succeeding and only then because he sees already successful applications of most of what he needs like the assembly line from the success of meat packing plants in using it.
Or, like Boeing success built over decades of good business decisions. Or, Einstein who spent much of his life in academic mediocrity and then wrote his quintessential paper on relativity after spending a decade or more thinking on it because he was in a position to do so.
That Sergio could come out of nowhere, then succeed in massive free thinking ways within a brutal dictatorship where failure was a one-way trip to the gulag, or for that matter having thinking contrary to the dictator's or even being thought of as a potential threat, is a pretty big stretch.

It is far more of a stretch that those around him would risk their lives and careers for what they might see as potential failure. Risk taking in bureaucratic dictatorships is something no sane person does.
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  #276  
Old 25 Jan 15, 01:04
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This ought to be fun

From my book…

Quote:
Sergo Peshkov
As a boy Sergo is fascinated by birds and flight. All he dreams about is feeling the wind on his face and the freedom of the hawk and eagle. When he first hears that man is trying to fly, he becomes obsessed with all things related to putting man and machine together in a divine harmony that can transcend gravity. He dreams of soaring with the hawks and kestrels on his grandfather’s farm.

During the summer of 1910, he designs a glider at the farm. On July 16th, 1910, he brings it up to the roof of the barn, and launches it, flying straight into the ground. As a result, he loses sight in his right eye. He will never fly again.
His fascination with all things aviation-related remains. As a young man he devours anything related to the air war during The Great War. In 1915, he tries, and fails, to enter the world of academia. Although brilliant his lack of knowledge outside of aviation dooms him from the start. His study of industrialization, along with his thoughts on how to improve the process, are seen as counter-revolutionary and deemed a deviation from the party line. His obsession with all things related to aviation and how to maximize the production of aircraft in a communist system, severely narrows his options in Soviet life.

He follows some of his boyhood friends, and becomes a member of the Communist Party. Because of his native genius he rises in the ranks. When he is not working he diligently studies aviation, air warfare and industrialization. Reading and studying the leading businessmen of the West, and their methods harms his career. He never marries and from all accounts, was celibate all his life. He lived and breathed flying machines, rockets and eventually jets, and the means to produce them.

One night fate intervenes in his life and he catches Stalin's eye at one of dictator’s infamous parties. No one knows why he is at the party as he neither drinks, nor smokes, takes no drugs nor is he interested in sex. This, of course, attracts the bully in Stalin and he corners Sergo, and begins to relentlessly to tease him. Someone in the crowd trying to impress Stalin, mentions Sergo's passion for flight. In an attempt to humiliate Sergo further, Stalin calls on one of the leading experts in the field, one Mikhail Gurevich. He is the “G” in the famous Soviet aircraft design bureau, MiG.
Gurevich was bullied into quizzing the unfortunate Sergo. To everyone's amazement he proves to be up to the task, dazzling Gurevich with his knowledge.

For some unfathomable reason, Stalin takes a liking to Sergo and has him transferred to his staff as a special aviation advisor. The rest, as they say, is history. Sergo has Stalin's ear, a brilliant mind and most of all, his trust. All are put to masterful use in the next 36 months.

There are many who believed in the 1940's that Stalin was a true communist. He was not. He was just your everyday run-of-the-mill dictator and mass murderer. Many devoted communists became spies for Stalin throughout the war thinking that by helping Stalin, they were creating a better world. These spies were truly astounding and were rivaled only by the British and their Ultra Program in gaining knowledge for their masters. The particular master charged with obtaining this intelligence was none other than Lavrenti Beria, the present head of the Soviet Secret Police, the NKVD.
By 1943, both the American atomic bomb program and the Nazi Army Research Station in Peenemunde had been infiltrated to a great degree. The secrets of both the Germans and the Allies were pouring into the Kremlin and anything related to aircraft, flight, jets and rockets all goes directly to Sergo Peshkov.

By August of 1944, three U.S. B-29 Superfortress bombers were forced to land in Vladivostok, Russia, after having been damaged while bombing Japan. They were never returned to the United States, and Sergo Peshkov had them all to study.

He becomes convinced that air power would be the key to any conflict with the Western Powers. He learns every flight specification, every nut and bolt, of the B-29 and any other Allied aircraft being flown, or on the drawing board. He has drawings and plans of many of the German super weapons being built or designed. He has the undivided attention, and trust, of one Joseph Stalin.

Sergo turns out to be a brilliant industrialist, on par with Henry Ford and William Boeing. Finally, all the ideas that were swirling in his mind were unleashed. All the brilliant minds that are wasting away, in gulags all over the USSR are tested. Intelligence and dexterity tests are given to every Jew, Pole, German, gypsy, civilian, women and adolescent, regardless of race, creed, gender or religion. Everyone currently not involved in military service or working in the production of war materials, is tested. Everyone who has a potential talent is put under the control of Sergo Peshkov. As German scientists and engineers are captured, they are turned over to Sergo Peshkov.

All blueprints, production plans, models, captured weapons; prototypes, etc. are transferred immediately to his care. He scours Soviet society for talented people, and gathers them all in a secret production facility, deep within the Ural Mountains. He is called the “Czar of Technology,” behind his back.
As the Nazis are pushed further away from the motherland, Stalin begins to think about the future after Hitler. Stalin listens to Sergo Peshkov, and gives him everything he needs to prepare for the next war.
Without realizing it you hit the nail on the head with this attempted zinger…

Quote:
Ford fail several times before succeeding and only then because he sees already successful applications of most of what he needs like the assembly line from the success of meat packing plants in using it.
Sergo does not have to worry about going bankrupt or even making a dime in profit. He has a dictator as a banker. He is much like Ford in that he is an unlikable person, who does not understand human emotions and behavior. He is relentless, focused and the closest thing there is to a humanized computer.

Stalin can count on him to take everything into consideration and come to the most logical conclusion there is, yet still without a shred of his personal emotions or fears clouding those conclusions. He is basically a psychopath and has no clue of how or why people behave the way they do. He is basically an idiot savant. A savant in regards to aerospace and manufacturing and an idiot when it comes to people. To him people are something to be used and not wasted. He sees no logic in killing perfectly usable humans or putting them in gulags to waste away. They should be tested and used to their fullest capacity in research, manufacturing etc. To send a brilliant mind off to be cannon fodder is an anathema to him.

Another excerpt from the books

Quote:
“Best-Laid Plans”
Sergo peaked through his small window, looking down on the production floor. Thousands of hand-picked workers danced around giant machines in a well-choreographed ballet, all designed to make the weapons that would save many civilian lives. Yes, they would take many enemy lives, as well, but they were still instruments of destruction.

Sergo’s interest in flight oddly, did not include combat. In his heart he was fascinated by things that fly and not things that are used to shoot down things that fly. In fact it was offensive to him that there was a need to do such a thing. Flight was glorious. It was life as far as he was concerned, yet he couldn’t bring himself to participate.

The injuries caused by the accident in his youth had instilled an overwhelming fear in him that he just couldn’t conquer, no matter how hard he tried. He became physically paralyzed if he even seriously thought about getting on any kind of machine that could fly. If he was tied up and carried on to a plane he was sure his heart would stop long before he reached its door.

No, he would never fly. He could make things that prevented others from flying over the Motherland for the purpose of dropping bombs. For whatever reason he could naturally see a problem and come up with a most logical solution to fit. What he had always lacked, was a way of communicating those solutions and the power to implement them. Now, he had both.
His memos were read by Stalin, and Stalin had the power to make his ideas reality. It baffled him, as I’m sure it baffled Ford and Edison, when others could not see the wisdom that was placed in front of them. People who stuck to the old ways just could not see the future. He was not a visionary or an inventor but he could see when someone had a good idea and could visualize best how to use that idea to considerable advantage. That was his apparent talent. Taking great ideas and putting them into action in their most practical application.

The captured German scientists were an enormous source of this kind of content and the American and British industrialists were exceptional sources of what methodology works, and what doesn’t. It’s actually pretty easy for him to look at something that others have already done successfully and replicate those successes. I mean, how hard is it to just copy what works and learn from what doesn’t work?

It was just luck that put him in this position. Imagine all those years ago if he hadn’t attended that horrible party and what if Stalin had not spotted him hiding in the corner. For once, his lack of social skills and inability to be politically-correct had not only saved his life, but actually made all he had accomplished possible. For once, his inability to lie or to deceive had actually made him successful; quite amazing when you think of it, which of course, he did relatively often.

Thank goodness Stalin saw him for what he was and not some kind of threat. He had seen what happens to people who are a perceived threat to Stalin. They simply disappear.

Take for example the idea of testing and using prisoners for production. How smart is it to just kill potentially useful individuals just because of their ethnic background or political beliefs. If a person is dexterous and nimble why not use them in some meaningful way instead of killing them? Feed them enough and have them perform a function that is meaningful. If you have to kill off useless mouths to feed, well then, kill off the fat-fingered stupid ones. The ones who were too old or too ham-fisted, those are the ones who you discard. Use the young males, and females, who test well for the proper jobs.

For the ones who show certain abilities train them for more exacting tasks. I’m even considering holding classes for the ones who show promise in design or engineering. A great mind is a shame to squander. It’s not like these workers can cause any trouble with their ideas or their political beliefs. They barely have time to eat and sleep, and they have no contact with the outside world. As far as their relatives are concerned, they are dead. Only their work keeps them alive and fed.

He did, nevertheless, hate using the children. He had to only because their small nimble fingers could accomplish some of the tasks necessary. Seeing them work day after day reminded him of the times after his accident. With only one good eye, his grandfather thought all he was good for was menial tasks and shoveling manure. Fortunately for him, his grandfather died, and his mother was able to retrieve him from the farm.
Sergo is so helpless when it comes to human interaction that he poses no threat to Stalin what so every. He is incapable to lying and cannot tell when someone is lying to him. He is the perfect adviser for a paranoid, mad man.

One more excerpt:

Quote:
The Eyes are the Window to the Soul

He looked into the eyes of a killer. One can guess that the conviction of his beliefs had given him the courage to do so. It was a courage that he never knew that he possessed. It was a courage that might get him horribly tortured, or even murdered. If he had known just how utterly ruthless his inquisitor was he may have acted differently. But what did it matter whether a man killed one person, or millions? He was still a killer.

He had to focus and stop thinking about how short the man behind the desk was. He had to ignore the pocked-marked skin and concentrate on what the cruel mouth behind the large mustache was saying. He needed to focus on what the actual words were and what the veiled threat behind them was. Because of how his mind worked, it was hard for him to tell these things.
His mind was like a machine. Everything was orderly and logical. He was usually helpless, when he had to deal with other humans' feelings. He was not a sociopath, just not adept at picking up the physical cues that most people took for granted. The meanings of the change of tone, or emphasis on certain words eluded him. He was sorely lacking in interpersonal skills. Logically he realized this, but it did him no good. He just didn’t have the capacity to adapt to most of the difficult situations that most of us readily cope with on a daily basis. The difference between a white lie and a real lie puzzled him.

Consequently he never lied.

The man across the table from him lived to lie. He ate lies. He breathed lies. To him, it came as naturally as blinking your eyes. He was a master at it. Sergo was helpless on many levels if the man with the mustache wanted to destroy him. He could tell Sergo a lie about a subject dear to his heart and in so doing, psychologically rip his ego apart in less than three sentences. He could send his mind into the depths of hell and cause suicidal thoughts with relative ease. The man across the table has both killed and crushed the very souls of thousands of victims.

Yet, with Sergo he didn't. He was never even tempted. From the first time they met he knew exactly how valuable this thing, that called itself a man, was. Imagine having a conversation with this human calculator, this idiot-savant of logic, feeding into it all the pertinent information needed, and absolutely counting on it to give you the most logical and unemotional solution to any problem. Give him the facts and the most logical solution would come out devoid of any politics or emotion. Yet he was able to factor in human feelings, such as jealousy and fear, into his calculations. In essence he was much more valuable than what we now know as a computer.

Sergo was such a fiasco as a functioning human being that he posed no apparent threat. He was the closest thing there was to a living, breathing, calculating-machine that ever existed. The only thing that touched his soul was flight. The only thing he dreamed about or spent idle moments thinking about, were birds and planes; that, and puzzles.

He loved solving puzzles whether just in his mind, or ones that involved any kind of logical system. He tended to reduce all problems he was given to solve into abstract terms and then worked them out in his mind, like someone playing chess. If this piece does that, then this piece can counter here; action and reaction…if we did that, they do this. Yet he was able to build into his solutions the human factor. There was just enough humanity built into him to factor in the emotions that a machine could never emulate.
This made him invaluable. That meant he will not meet the same fate that befell so many others. That meant that Sergo will probably die peacefully, in his own bed.

“The Dream Team”
Georgy received the usual memo passed through the slot, and ran to do the bidding of his unseen master.

He marveled that this fellow Sergo had the ability to place the exact right person in the exact right job. He had heard that he didn’t know people’s names but just looked at the tests he had designed and each of the fifty-thousand workers was, to him, just a number, just another cog to be placed into the machine of the expanded Soviet aerospace effort. Sergo just looked at the test results and then categorized each 'rehabilitated' worker and put them in those file drawers of his, according to some system he kept in his head.

They had tried to get him some kind of assistance to help him with his job or just something to ease his burdens, as well as to spy on him. He wouldn’t hear of it. They even tried getting him one of the most beautiful women he had ever seen to be his assistant and when he rejected her, they got him a young man who liked other men, but that didn’t work either. He was simply immune to the security organ's sexual ploys.

Since late 1943, Sergo’s operation has been right behind the German, U.S. and British research and development efforts in six main areas: jet engines, rockets, heavy bombers, radar, munitions guidance systems and high-octane fuel. He saw early the need for each of these particular elements. He let the other nations spend the time and money to do the research and testing, then used their data and waited for the triumphs. Beria's remarkable spy-network brought him the information that he needed, which made matters easier in stealing and improving upon the ideas of others at a prodigious rate. Then, he set his minions on their paths.

Along the way he had to find people to delve into metallurgy, organic chemistry, physics, and so forth to help close the deficiencies in Soviet technology. He personally knew nothing about any of these scientific disciplines, but his tests had identified hundreds of prodigies in each of these disciplines and dozens more with potential. When he needed an organic chemist to work on cracking oil and producing high octane gas, he pulled his files and found the right one for the job. He was even allowing some the foremost minds miraculously still alive after the purges, to teach promising prisoners.

Sergo started parallel programs to the German, British and American efforts. Beria’s intelligence machine fed Sergo's operation new data and documents, all of which was used to its fullest advantage. Great strides had been made in the development of what were essentially copies of the German, British and even American jet engines. Georgy had heard that Beria had a spy, William Mutterperl, who was on the design team of the Yankees jet fighter.[37] As a consequence of these efforts in replicating and improving the work of their former allies and enemies the Soviet war machine was now only three to four months behind in these critical areas.

In a few areas, they were ahead, but only because of Sergo’s emphasis and insistence. The ground-to-air missile system was such an example. The Germans started to develop, even produce, the Wasserfall ground-to-air missile in 1943 when Hitler stopped their research and production to concentrate on the V-2. Sergo saw the promise that Albert Speer saw in the Wasserfall and continued unabated, with its development.

Georgy was responsible for seeing that his unseen master’s wishes came to fruition and he was extremely good at it. Right now high-octane aviation gas was being produced to keep the VVS fighters competitive with NATO's aircraft. During the first month of the war they had to use hoarded stocks of Lend-Lease fuel but now, their own production had reached acceptable and sustainable levels. It is interesting to note that Russians had been leaders in organic chemistry since the 1890's, when Vladimir Shukhov first “cracked” oil. [ 38]

A former student of Shukhov had defected to the U.S. in 1930, but the secrets he took with him came from the U.S.S.R. The defector named Vladimir Ipatieff was given credit for finding an economical way to create high-octane gas in 1930, for the capitalist war-mongers, and yet, he was educated in the Soviet Union, and much of his research remained behind when he defected. That research was put to good use, and little Anna Mezhlumova reproduced his process. Now, high-octane aviation gas was being stockpiled, for future use.

Another example would be when the MiG Design Bureau became aware of the German Focke-Wulf Ta-183 project in 1944, and emulating the parallel research process that Sergo had pioneered for copying and improving others' designs, they began work on what would eventually become the MiG-15. This ground-breaking jet fighter could be operational as soon as May, 1947. It was a frightening prospect for any future U.S. bombing attempts.

The jet engine that would be paired with MiG-15 was, itself, a product of this parallel research process, along with the Wasserfall missile, and its guidance system. These were incredible feats of intellectual theft, but all is fair in love and war, and this was clearly not love.

Sergo had tried to convince Stalin that the B-29 program should be emulated, as well, but he remained unconvinced. The resources were not there for all of these.


[ 37] - John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr, Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America, Yale University Press (1999), pg. 259, 347, 449. ISBN 0-300-07771-8.

[38] - The Shukhov cracking process is a thermal cracking process invented by Vladimir Shukhov and Sergei Gavrilov. Shukhov designed and built the first thermal cracking techniques important to the petrochemical industry. His patent (Shukhov cracking process – patent of Russian empire No. 12926 from November 27, 1891) on cracking was used to invalidate Standard Oil's patents (Burton process – Patent of USA No. 1,049,667 on January 7, 1913) on oil refineries.
Oh and yes I do have foot notes in my books. Pretty unusual for a work of fiction. I can thank you for that. Your unrelenting and unsupported criticism and your perchance for stretching the truth made me consider it and it has worked out so far.

So even though you did it unwittingly... Thanks
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Old 19 Oct 16, 18:19
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Hey hey humans!

So I came about this thread after thinking about the same thing, for many years, and searching the internet for the same thing.

And I must say it has been very interesting seeing what some people write. Both in this forum and in many others over the years.



First let me say that that Draco is 100% correct on what he wrote 2 years ago, 2014, when he made this thread and everyone who disagrees with him are 100% wrong, and I actually have absolute proof of it, or as close one can get without a time machine.


But before I publish the proof I want to say this

Draco, and I hope you read this : You are 100% correct it is so obvious that if Germany gets no oil then their planes, trucks, tanks, ships and economy crashes and they are screwed, it is so completely obvious

If Stalin had cut off his own supplies in 1940 to Germany then Germany would have been unable to invade the USSR, Germany would in addition to that have far less artillery, ammunition and all types of armaments without Soviet resources.

Cutting off the Romanian oil supply in addition to that would mean a complete collapse of the German economy.

Draco, but here is a thing, lots of people who are interested in ww2 have problem with reality, they fantasize about nazi Germany the same way little schoolgirls think about boy bands and I can't even write what they think of the USSR because then my post will be deleted, but it is nothing good. These people are unable to process facts, they have an enormous cognitive bias which they simply can not get past.



Anyway here is the absolute proof that this would have been a complete victory for the USSR and that it is so fracking obvious.




In 1942 Hitler went to Finland and met with the Finnish leader Mannerheim. That meeting was recorded by the Finns, and has been known for many decades, and has been on the internet for over 10 years and more importantly Hitler himself talks about this specific scenario.

He says that if the USSR would have invaded in the fall of 1940 Germany would have been unable to do anything until the Spring of 41, and that is the FALL, imagine if the USSR had done it in the summer when Germany is in France, then Germany is completely in the s**t.

Here is a link of the conversation, I use the same one used by another poster at armcharigeneral who posted the same information, haha! It of course has few replies COGNITIVE BIAS.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/docs/Man...040642_dt.html

Here is the armcharigeneral link

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=92198


AND HERE IS THE PROOF DRACO WAS RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREED WAS WRONG.

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I always feared - that Russia suddenly would attack Romania in the late fall - and occupy the petroleum wells, and we would have not been ready in the late fall of 1940. If Russia indeed had taken Romanian petroleum wells, than Germany would have been lost. It would have required - just 60 Russian divisions to handle that matter.

In Romania we had of course - at that time - no major units. The Romanian government had turned to us only recently - and what we did have there was laughable. They only had to occupy the petroleum wells. Of course, with our weapons I could not start a, war in September or October. That was out of the question. Naturally, the transfer to the east wasn't that far advanced yet. Of course, the units first had to reconsolidate in the west. First the armaments had to be taken care of because we too had - yes, we also had losses in our campaign in the west. It would have been impossible to attack - before the spring of 19, 41. And if the Russians at that time - in the fall of 1940 - had occupied Romania - taken the petroleum wells, then we would have been, helpless in 1941.

Another Voice In Background: Without petroleum...

Hitler: (Interrupting) We had huge German production: however, the demands of the air force, our Panzer divisions - they are really huge. It is level of consumption that surpasses the imagination. And without the addition of four to five million tons of Romanian petroleum, we could not have fought the war - and would have had to let it be - and that was my big worry.


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I also know with 100% certainty that those people who disagreed with Draco and now who will disagree with me, will of course never admit that they were wrong.

It is so obvious, cut off the oil and Germany is fu***d it is totally obvious, EVEN HITLER SAYS IT!


I made this account specifically to make this post and specifically to tell Draco that he was right and everyone who disagreed was totally wrong. HAHA!

The internet is a thing


There are so many ignorant fools who do not know anything about ww2 but who THINK that they do, YES, they think so many many things. All of the 100% wrong of course.

Now with that said I can move on

Last edited by TheWorld; 19 Oct 16 at 22:54..
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