HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > Ukrainian Crisis

Notices and Announcements

Ukrainian Crisis Discuss the unfolding crisis in Ukraine.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 12 Jun 16, 23:01
DeltaOne's Avatar
DeltaOne DeltaOne is offline
General of the Forums
Powflag
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Don
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,963
DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
Or he is just plain down evil.

Honestly, any decent person with sound judgement will realize that Ukraine is in a civil war, and is the Ukrainian side who started it and who is commiting war crimes by bombing cities, blockading Donbass and arresting, torturing and murdering dissidents.

It's just sad that there are so many people blinded by hate and brainwashed by propaganda that believe Russians, inside and out of Russia, are not human beings and can be killed with impunity.

The Russians are the new Jews.

Just report him as a troll and don't bother replying to him.
Takes one to know one! If someone has a differing view, you just give them a red pip, call them liars and tell them how much you hate them. Right? Thats what you did to me, despite that we have never once been involved in any thread before this point. It will take a lot more than telling me you hate me repeatedly in one instance. Go get help!
You are free to believe whatever you want to, I couldn't give a tinker's damn! You can debate with those who think differently too. BUT you need to seriously grow up and accept that there will always be differing perspectives on either side of a topic.

Under the definition of troll, I only found your name.
__________________
"War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
- Col. David Hackworth

Last edited by DeltaOne; 13 Jun 16 at 11:48..
  #47  
Old 13 Jun 16, 00:05
Arnold J Rimmer's Avatar
Arnold J Rimmer Arnold J Rimmer is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Red Dwarf
Posts: 21,076
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Again, "Russians" you talk about are Ukrainian citizens living in Ukraine. You say essentially that they are second-rate people who have no political rights and who must get away from their homes. Right?

Oh, well. I believe, the Ukrainian government committed crimes against humanity, covered in this very topic, or by shelling and bombing towns with "children, women, and the elderly". You can find enough 18+ photos of mutilated bodies on the Internet. So we return to my original point. Support of rebels in Ukraine is no different from support of rebels in Yugoslavia, Libya and Syria.
There is no comparison.

The noble people of the Ukraine fighting for their Independence have a key difference:

They are killing Russians.

Much can be forgiven of anyone engaged in such a worthy task.

Such has been the UsAs policy for sixty plus years. Never kid yourself that is has changed beyond the surface.
__________________
Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.
  #48  
Old 13 Jun 16, 04:05
Snowygerry's Avatar
Snowygerry Snowygerry is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gent
Posts: 11,274
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
(...) The really funny thing is how supporters of Putin's brand of politics for Russia deny this problem, when at the same time Putin acts in ways giving every evidence his circle understands quite well what the inherent dangers are.
QFT.
__________________
High The Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor - The Napoleonic Wars Campaign.

Captain Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.
  #49  
Old 13 Jun 16, 07:34
Artyom_A's Avatar
Artyom_A Artyom_A is offline
Lieutenant General
Russia
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Moscow
Posts: 3,089
Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
It's just sad that there are so many people blinded by hate and brainwashed by propaganda that believe Russians, inside and out of Russia, are not human beings and can be killed with impunity.

The Russians are the new Jews.
What an excellent illustration we have in this very topic just two posts above. The next time our Western friends would be telling their usual crap about democracy, human rights and equal opportunities I would definitely remember that.
  #50  
Old 13 Jun 16, 07:55
Artyom_A's Avatar
Artyom_A Artyom_A is offline
Lieutenant General
Russia
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Moscow
Posts: 3,089
Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
Respect the country's border and take the argument to the international community.
It's plainly obvious that it is exactly the principle "the West" (USA and allies) has repeatedly violated in the last 15 or 20 years. As one commentator put it about the events "Russia has violated the Western monopoly to violate international right". That is a reason why lectures on "respecting borders and sovereignty" to Russians are mostly useless, "And what you guys did in Iraq?" would be an automatic response.
Quote:
This whole mess is about grabbing land.sovereignty over the peninsula remains disputed as Ukraine and the majority of the international community consider the annexation as being illegal.
Nope, the mess is mostly about the civil war and a long-lasting political crisis in Ukraine proper. That Crimea would remain a de-facto Russian region is absolutely clear to most observers. Everybody (except the most stupid brand of Ukrainian nationalist) has accepted it as a fact, the criticism is mostly of ritual nature.
Quote:
That is why a large range of international sanctions were put in place and remain in place against Russia
The sanction put after Crimea were all symbolic (ritual criticism). Unlike the sanctions put in July-August 2014 after Moscow stepped up military support for Donbass separatists. As I said Crimea is not a major issue at all.
Sponsored Links

  #51  
Old 13 Jun 16, 08:25
Artyom_A's Avatar
Artyom_A Artyom_A is offline
Lieutenant General
Russia
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Moscow
Posts: 3,089
Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300]
It should be added that the Ukrainian official position "We want Crimea back" is also just a ritual phrase, because they have no idea what to do with 2 million people totally unloyal to the present Ukrainian regime. So de-facto Russian (but unrecognized) Crimea is a comfortable situation practically for everybody.
  #52  
Old 13 Jun 16, 09:05
Epigon's Avatar
Epigon Epigon is offline
Major
Croatia
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Zagreb
Posts: 912
Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99]
But he is right. And for even longer than 60 years, the various European states were ready to support, praise and make pacts with anyone ready to fight and oppose Russian interests.

I mean, just look at the foreign "anti-Bolshevik" "intervention" in the Russian Civil war, their actual fighting part, and the number of combat casualties. Likewise, the Poles initially supported Reds against Whites, but soon went to war against the Reds.

Furthermore, Freie Ukraine project as envisioned by the Germans, Sich Rifles of Habsburgs, Ukrainisation of Russyns, then you have Berlin congress, Crimean War, Great Game, glorification of Circassians, Polish independence comitees, Tatar-Polish alliances etc.

Such is the price of having a continent spanning Empire, enemies and rivals aplenty. It could be argued that proxies always came out worst. Which bears a striking resemblance to modern support of Ukraine - they aren't supporting it to make a successful country or defend it through NATO defence alliance - they do it to inflict damage to Russia and Russian interests, no matter the cost to the population and country itself. As it happened elsewhere throughout the globe and history.

This isn't done out of hatred, it is cynical realpolitik and dealing with potential adversaries. Had there been a hypothetical Ukraine/"Kievan Rus" that would be the strongest Eastern European country, it would be met with the same. Just my humble opinion on the background of it all. I don't want to excuse or ignore the suffering and destruction, but by now it should be clear that countries can't and don't care for the lives of individuals - they pursue their long-term interests first, no matter what story and paperwrap they try to use to hide it.
  #53  
Old 13 Jun 16, 09:19
Karri's Avatar
Karri Karri is offline
General of the Forums
Finland
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Summer Campaign 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monterrey
Posts: 9,333
Karri has earned the respect of all [900] Karri has earned the respect of all [900]
Karri has earned the respect of all [900] Karri has earned the respect of all [900] Karri has earned the respect of all [900] Karri has earned the respect of all [900] Karri has earned the respect of all [900] Karri has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
But he is right. And for even longer than 60 years, the various European states were ready to support, praise and make pacts with anyone ready to fight and oppose Russian interests.

I mean, just look at the foreign "anti-Bolshevik" "intervention" in the Russian Civil war, their actual fighting part, and the number of combat casualties. Likewise, the Poles initially supported Reds against Whites, but soon went to war against the Reds.

Furthermore, Freie Ukraine project as envisioned by the Germans, Sich Rifles of Habsburgs, Ukrainisation of Russyns, then you have Berlin congress, Crimean War, Great Game, glorification of Circassians, Polish independence comitees, Tatar-Polish alliances etc.

Such is the price of having a continent spanning Empire, enemies and rivals aplenty. It could be argued that proxies always came out worst. Which bears a striking resemblance to modern support of Ukraine - they aren't supporting it to make a successful country or defend it through NATO defence alliance - they do it to inflict damage to Russia and Russian interests, no matter the cost to the population and country itself. As it happened elsewhere throughout the globe and history.

This isn't done out of hatred, it is cynical realpolitik and dealing with potential adversaries. Had there been a hypothetical Ukraine/"Kievan Rus" that would be the strongest Eastern European country, it would be met with the same. Just my humble opinion on the background of it all. I don't want to excuse or ignore the suffering and destruction, but by now it should be clear that countries can't and don't care for the lives of individuals - they pursue their long-term interests first, no matter what story and paperwrap they try to use to hide it.
True. Finland does whatever furthers our interests. Russia does what furthers their interest. USA does the same. As does everyone else. Me and you included.

Which makes it quite hard to rad any journalistic pieces about anything politics related since somehow this fact has been forgotten. I think it's the aftermath of WW2 that still weights so heavily; the good and the bad.
__________________
Food tastes better than ethics
  #54  
Old 13 Jun 16, 12:25
DeltaOne's Avatar
DeltaOne DeltaOne is offline
General of the Forums
Powflag
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Don
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,963
DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
This isn't done out of hatred, it is cynical realpolitik and dealing with potential adversaries. Had there been a hypothetical Ukraine/"Kievan Rus" that would be the strongest Eastern European country, it would be met with the same. Just my humble opinion on the background of it all. I don't want to excuse or ignore the suffering and destruction, but by now it should be clear that countries can't and don't care for the lives of individuals - they pursue their long-term interests first, no matter what story and paperwrap they try to use to hide it.
Yes, in the taking of Crimea, Russia gained access to oil and gas reserves thought to hold more than the North Sea reserves. They also gained 3 massive solar energy plants and export terminals in port of Odessa; military ship building yards in Nikolayev; an oil refinery; chemical plants; grain export silos; hydro-electric plants; two of the largest nuclear power stations in Europe; lots of magnesium, coal, and iron ore. Their Black Sea fleet also is benefited by the move. So yes, I agree, Russia's move had little to do with the 'Russian people' living in Crimea and such but had everything to do with the gains highlighted above.
As far as torture goes, I am sure BOTH sides have engaged in acts that are illegal under laws regarding the treatment of soldiers during a time of war. Russian soldiers can go home to Russia and thus take themselves out of this conflict. Don't deny they aren't there. They are!
Crimea at one time may have been Russian territory. No one is saying it wasn't. The fact is, in 1954, that region WAS GIVEN to Ukraine by Khrushchev. It belongs to them now, not Russia. It doesn't matter one bit if most people are Russian. Respect the borders and live with the decisions made by the RUSSIAN government in 1954 and this whole mess can end. If there is no war, there is no torture. That may be a novel idea for some to consider.
__________________
"War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
- Col. David Hackworth
  #55  
Old 13 Jun 16, 13:45
Epigon's Avatar
Epigon Epigon is offline
Major
Croatia
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Zagreb
Posts: 912
Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99] Epigon is on the path to success [1-99]
Odessa is STILL in Ukraine. As is Mykolaiv (don't you dare use Nikolaev!!!). There are no significant solar or especially hydroelectric (on the contrary, there was a shortage of water as Ukraine shut water supply from Ukrainian rivers) plants in Crimea, nor are there two of the largest nuclear stations there. Originally a NPP was envisioned but following the Chernobyl disaster, the construction was stopped: the unfinished building stands to this day. These theoretical gas and oil reserves for some reason haven't been really exploited, and I don't know where did you find all those mineral deposits in Crimea, or any of the heavy and chemical industry. The value is strategic and symbolic for Russians, not economic necessarily: the power supply bridges (HVDC link), renovation and upgrade of the badly neglected infrastructure and the social expenses of the population by far exceed the value, as is noted by the Russians themselves.

Having said that, Crimean Autonomous Republic in the USSR was not a unitary part of Ukrainian SSR. And following the USSR break-up, the de facto annexation by Ukraine was done contrary to Crimean Constitution. That is if we go by the law, and not the fact that Russian Federation was decomposing in the glorious liberal and progressive reforms, wars and separatism and in no position to contest it. Might makes right. So when the Russian '90s which were ridiculed and made fun of in Ukraine came to their doorstep, the tables turned.

Last edited by Epigon; 13 Jun 16 at 13:56..
  #56  
Old 21 Jun 16, 08:28
von Junzt's Avatar
von Junzt von Junzt is offline
Brigadier General
Spain
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Him Who Is Not to be Named
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lost in time and space
Posts: 2,009
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
Back on topic, anyone that supports the current Ukraine regime and their nazi supporters needs to have his head examined or take a lead pill.

http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/06/ukr...g-donbass.html

The anesthesiologist Alexander Chernov, who worked in the city of Ienakievo in the Donbass, said that in providing emergency care to veterans of the Donetsk People's Republic (DNR) he did whatever he could to cause maximum damage to patients.

In an interview with the online channel Ukrlife.tv, anesthesiologist Alexander Chernov told the chilling story of his "achievements" during fighting in eastern Ukraine. The video was posted on YouTube. According to Mr. Chernov, he only used standard resuscitation drugs.

"I inflicted maximum damage to enemy patients with medication. At first glance, it would look like a heart attack, a stroke, or simply something incomprehensible. Only careful and costly expertise can discover a person's true cause of death," said the doctor/murderer.

The Ukrainian resuscitator added that he had sent in all personal data and diagnoses of patients to the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) by email and Skype.

"Many of my colleagues, unfortunately, believe that doctors are out of politics. But I continue to assure everyone that the Hippocratic oath should not be an excuse to help the enemy," said Alexander Chernov.

Chernov said that after leaving the DNR he continued to practice medicine in the territories under the control of Kiev.
__________________
CANNON, n.
An instrument employed in the rectification of national boundaries.

The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

http://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra.tumblr.com/

http://pinturasdeguerra-mar.tumblr.com/

Last edited by von Junzt; 21 Jun 16 at 08:48..
  #57  
Old 22 Jun 16, 08:44
DeltaOne's Avatar
DeltaOne DeltaOne is offline
General of the Forums
Powflag
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Don
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,963
DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] DeltaOne has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
On topic, those who would like to see the other side of the story can go to the link below. It was an article from a Russian journalist who wrote about Russian troops being in the Ukraine and torture committed by them.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/07/2...ays-babchenko/

Now, I am sure that some who support the rebels will say its all lies. That's okay because others will think the story in the post before this one is lies too.
Personally, I don't put it past either side.
__________________
"War is hell, but actual combat is a motherf#cker"
- Col. David Hackworth
  #58  
Old 22 Jun 16, 09:34
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,389
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
Now, I am sure that some who support the rebels will say its all lies. That's okay because others will think the story in the post before this one is lies too.
Personally, I don't put it past either side.
Exactly.

Though that some one would be suggesting that any one opposing their viewpoints ought to be shot or have their head examined is something i certainly didn't expect to see here.
Closed Thread

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:18.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.