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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #31  
Old 09 Feb 15, 23:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jf42 View Post

I am of course aware of the story of the 5th Regiment and the white feathers picked up after the defeat of the French at La Vigie on St Lucia although I am not sure why you were quoting it at that point.
The quote(s) about the wearing of feathers in this or that regiment, who originated it within the British army, is unknown. and if you look to my last to Spaniard re: General Maitland anecdote on his Uncle Col. John Maitland in AWI:

“And for fear that he should not know the Battalion, I will order all our Men to wear Red Feathers in their Caps – Accordingly Red Feathers were immediately mounted by the 2nd Batt of 71 Reg and were ever afterwards displayed – This was the origin of the British Army wearing Feathers.”

I posted a response that the claim above in bold may not be true, then I posted the info about the 5th (who only months earlier were doing the same type of fighting and raiding as the 71st) as yet another story, all be it a few months later, of a regiment claiming its distinction of wearing of white feathers taken from the enemy.

So in the case of feather wearing, I am in your camp of thought in this matter.

I had also used the above quotes over on the TMP Napoleonics site below, to reiterate that the 23rd wore the white plume throughout the regiment without exception, as some members in that and previous threads were of the impression that they (as well as the other Fusilier regiments of the period) wore the same plume colouring as any other regiment.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=365336

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  #32  
Old 10 Feb 15, 08:28
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No, to be sure General Maitland appears not to have known what he was talking about when he wrote to David Stewart.

Yes, I saw the thread re. the question of white feathers being worn throughout the fusilier regiments, both battalion and flank companies. That is a question I had been wondering about. Your references from Glover make the answer pretty plain. Good to pin it down. The nature of the identity of Fusilier regiments and their distinctions is interesting and tends to be glossed over. Certainly, they saw themselves as apart even if their military role by 1800 was essentially that of a Line infantry regiment.
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  #33  
Old 10 Feb 15, 14:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
I cut and paste nothing. I took the quote from 'That Astonishing Infantry: The History of the Royal Welch Fusiliers 1689-2006, and typed out all that was seen by me as relevant. Here is the part I didn't quote.

"For line battalion companies as half red, half white, and for Light companies of battalions as green"


"The 5th Northumberland Regiment of foot also had white plumes throughout the regiment (though the centre coys kept the normal shoulder strap and tuft) This was a distinction gained from an action at St. Lucia 1778, where the men took the white plumes from the defeated French troops which was enough for the whole regiment to be so equipped and they kept the distinction until they received official approval in 1826."


I don't, and I'm 100% certain that you don't either, know all there is to know when it comes to the origins of many of the traditions, uniform anomalies, dates that certain changes to specific regiments uniforms were officially adopted etc.

Paul

Mr. Paul I can assure U I’m 110% clueless, on British Army regiments uniforms, dates, and traditions, even Canadian regiments, and still learning, lol. My main focus is CDN Black Watch history, and that has holes on dates etc., considering the early days mainly derives from Captain Ernest Chambers compilations on the Regiment.

On the 71st Cartouche box badge, the Stewart Museum in Montreal and Halifax labelling, as a bonnet badge, relied on Rene Chartrand and Harper acclaimed Canadian historian during Expo 1967: I can assure you both have dropped the ball in certain accounts, one can say they copied and pasted from others, styling it as their own body of work without providing sources.


For the olden days history we turn too books, present and past, journals, letters, archives, documents, what is problematic those accounts are not consistent, depending on historian/author.



Quote:
“ Accordingly Red Feathers were immediately mounted by the 2nd Batt of 71 Reg and were ever afterwards displayed – This was the origin of the British Army wearing Feathers.”
Your right not true, In Canadian ingrained historical accounts on the 42nd and 78th of Foot for the Seven Year’s War, 1754–1763, they wore black ostrich feathers.


Quote:
Around 1709 officers began to adopt the wearing of feathers in their hats, and this was officially sanctioned in 1789 when the colour of the feather plume, or hackle, was laid down...."

I quickly replied; I haven’t had time to dig into it, and my understand from what I read in books, in 1789 others state circa 1790 officially sanctioned, now JF42 states 1770s as non-regulation.

The accounts on the 5th Regiment, in December 1778, the Regiment obtained the privilege of wearing a white plume, instead of the red and white tufts borne by the rest of the Line. This is when they removed the white feathers from the dead French Grenadiers, “to equip every man in the regiment.” When ceased to exist, in 1829 when George IV. CO the regiment, henceforth wear a feather, half red and half white, the red uppermost, as a peculiar mark of honour.


It’s my understanding the accounts on white feathers worn by the grenadiers and LI wearing green in AWI only appears in 1778 post reorganised.



In the 37th Lt. Inf. Company Orderly Book, 1778-81, Necessary Bill of Captain Eyre Coote’s Company: “Articles in the 37th Store, Oct. 24th 1778; 1lb of yellow thread,
50 Green Feathers.


Letters of Francis Laye, Royal Artillery Officer (National Army Museum manuscripts (6807-154): Jamaica, Long Island, Dec. 12th., 1778 as fallows:-

“The British Grenadiers & Light Infantry being cantooned here & always the fashion in action I applied to be attached to them which was granted.”
“The Light Infantry wear a green feather in their Caps & we the Grenadiers a White one in our Hats.”



Stirling’s Letter to Dick in 1822: The origin of their wearing this feather commenced early in the American War of 1776 when the regiment was Brigaded with the Grenadiers and Light Infantry of the Army under the command of the late Marquis Cornwallis- at this period there were no regulation feathers, the grenadiers wore White Feathers, the first battalion Light Infantry wore Green,- the 2nd Light Infantry wore Red, and to make the whole uniform General Sir William Howe, then Commander-in-Chief, ordered the 42nd to get red feathers which they have wore ever since. Not sure; refers to 42nd RHR 1st Batt.?



LI wore white feathers early during the war derives from US Congressional Records, on “Maitland ordered his men to stain their white feathers red as echoed by other historians/authors.”


Like I stated the Colonial Army or Patriots in AWI, some regiment’s wore feathers or even during the Seven Year’s War, hence, Yankee Doodle, sticking chicken feathers, (I would presume white), on their hats, and call it macaroni. The white, red, etc., feathers were worn by American Indians, the Spaniards and French Army etc., decorated their hats with feathers in 1700s-1800s.


C.U.

Joseph

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Last edited by Spaņiard; 11 Feb 15 at 12:08..
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  #34  
Old 11 Feb 15, 12:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
That quotation regarding Major Menzies has nothing to do with me. I can't think what the comment is based on.

John Maitland was promoted Lieut Col of 1st Bn, 71st in October 1778, vice William Erskine, who was returning to Britain and whose command of the 1st Bn had, in any case, been nominal since his appointment as QMG in October 1776 (Previously, he had, as Brigadier, been in command of the entire 71st after those companies that had made it safely to Staten Island were re-organised into three field battalions). Menzies was two years dead, dying before he even made it ashore, and had never been a battalion commander in the 71st in any case.



Whatever feather the 2nd Light Infantry battalion may have worn in their hats 1776-1778, it was certainly not white.



See my previous post for a rough outline of infantry hat feathers in L.C18th. I have no idea what your remark is based on. 'On a whim' doesn't really help advance understanding.

JF my sincerest apologies, I assumed it was U that posted on Maitland and Maj. Menzies, 7 months ago I found that on Revlist etc., accounts on feathers, Maitland, etc. Found 2 post same on other sites and assumed it held water. I found no other accounts that neither collaborated nor personally saw the relevance, died in 1776 at Boston harbour; that’s why I asked, was confused.

Prior to opening the red feather or feathers can of worms on the 42nd:

Maj. J. Maitland a marine commanded 2nd LI Batt., the LI and Grenadier battalions were disbanded, 2nd LI Batt., Nov. 3rd, 1778 and reorganised into one battalion. It is written; few days post Baylar, Old Tappan Sept. 27 1778 the Maj. was transferred and promoted Lt.-Col. CO 2nd Batt., 71st Regt. of Foot, (Fraser’s Highlanders). (in October)?


I thought he was with the Battalion 2nd LI., once disbanded Nov. 3rd, 1778, he transferred to the 71st promoted Lt.-Col. CO 2nd Batt.


You have accounts: Orders were issued prior to Tappan the LI and Grenadier battalions to disband and return to their respective regiments. Many Rank and file Coy’s refused to comply with the orders, and were reissued post Tappan: took weeks for Coy’s to rejoin their regiments.

Maitland’s 2nd LI Batt., there’s no contemporary evidence that supports they wore feathers in that case, once disbanded the newly formed LI late 1778 wore green feather, Grenadiers white by the evidence.



.

Last edited by Spaņiard; 11 Feb 15 at 12:30..
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  #35  
Old 15 Aug 15, 11:31
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GD153/1/7 Lists the companies of one of the 71st Btn's being refitted in 1783. The Light Company gets approx 2 black feathers and 1 red, the Grenadier company 2 black and one white. This is consistant with Grenadier btn practices, and the order from Maitland having his Light Btn wear red feathers (prior to his becoming a Colonel in the 71st). This document also lists the 71st "hat" companies wearing only black feathers.
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  #36  
Old 15 Aug 15, 11:43
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As for the badge, there's nothing, anywhere, that shows them to have been worn on the bonnets. There is a document indicating that the officers wore them on their cartridge boxes. NLS ACC 9171/16 Shows the effects of a dead 71st officer. "Cartridge box ornaments" in my opinion are what some call bonnet badges.

Also, a list of supplies sent to the Royal Highland Emigrants (later 84th Foot), shoes cartridge boxes, and also pouches with "bages". Given that the RHE/84th used unmarked versions of the badges in question, I'd say these items were used on ammo carriage flaps.

Finally, the 71st badges have pins on the rear that match those used by other regimental badges known to have been used on side pouches.
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  #37  
Old 30 Apr 16, 22:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrmiddon View Post
GD153/1/7 Lists the companies of one of the 71st Btn's being refitted in 1783. The Light Company gets approx 2 black feathers and 1 red, the Grenadier company 2 black and one white. This is consistant with Grenadier btn practices, and the order from Maitland having his Light Btn wear red feathers (prior to his becoming a Colonel in the 71st). This document also lists the 71st "hat" companies wearing only black feathers.

My sincerest apologies for the delayed response, clueless you posted these priceless documents many moons ago, adding credence on the 71st red feather worn by the light Coys, your contribution, greatly appreciated.

I wonder if JF 42 saw your post, will soon fined out, lol.

Just asking; in those documents any mention on the 42nd LI Coy's wearing red feathers, etc.,?

Spaņard


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