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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #136  
Old 29 Mar 16, 21:32
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Originally Posted by Theoferrum View Post
I disagree - everyone has a conscience but it is the social and religious conditioning that causes people to ignore (or not) said conscience - this is one of the things that separate men from animals.
Interesting. You are saying that a conscience is innate and an integral part of what it means to be human : so a sense of what is right and what is wrong is built-in regardless of culture ?
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  #137  
Old 29 Mar 16, 21:44
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Interesting. You are saying that a conscience is innate and an integral part of what it means to be human : so a sense of what is right and what is wrong is built-in regardless of culture ?
I suggest you watch the last part of this video where Daniel Dennett discusses how instincts (emotions) are not something separate from the intellect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRHQfq-d8o4

For a more general and entertaining look at natural morality I recommend this book.

Wild Justice

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ie=UTF8&btkr=1

No social animal can exist without a "moral" code.
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  #138  
Old 29 Mar 16, 21:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfhnd View Post
I suggest you watch the last part of this video where Daniel Dennett discusses how instincts (emotions) are not something separate from the intellect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRHQfq-d8o4

For a more general and entertaining look at natural morality I recommend this book.

Wild Justice

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ie=UTF8&btkr=1

No social animal can exist without a "moral" code.
Thank you. It's an interesting field.
So does your average terrorist, after killing and maiming hundreds of innocents, suffer terrible pangs of conscience ?
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  #139  
Old 31 Mar 16, 12:04
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Observing that social animals have a code of conduct does not demonstrate that a code of conduct is innate in all reasonably intelligent beings including humans, and that it is independent from education and culture.

If anything, it does exactly the opposite.

That's because, well, they are social animals. Young apes, wolves, dolphins all grow up in the pack. Every moment they are awake they receive an education from their mother and other older animals in their pack. They are taught a code of conduct, and often a quite strict one.

So if social animals have a code of conduct, the evidence is that it is a fruit of education and socialization.
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  #140  
Old 31 Mar 16, 16:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Thank you. It's an interesting field.
So does your average terrorist, after killing and maiming hundreds of innocents, suffer terrible pangs of conscience ?
There are some obviously innate feelings (instincts) associated with young not only of our species but say kittens and puppies for example. In many social animals however mothers will abandoned their young if conditions are difficult and adult males will kill the offspring of other males. Innate behaviors can be very complex for example take stotting. Stotting involves signaling between species. The energetic and seemingly purposeless leaps of antelopes signal to lions and other predators that it would be better to chase an individual that cannot stot.

The traditional view of instincts as robot like reflexes can be misleading and with more advanced animals it is probably best to think of them as predispositions. The advantages of making instincts flexible are obvious when there are brains capable of analysing the environment. Almost all instincts in humans can be overridden by cognitive processes.

Instincts can also be overridden by parasites. For example zombie fungus takes over the mind of ants to propagate itself.

Quote:
Infected hosts leave their canopy nests and foraging trails for the forest floor, an area with a temperature and humidity suitable for fungal growth; they then use their mandibles to affix themselves to a major vein on the underside of a leaf, where the host remains until its eventual death.[3] The process leading to mortality takes 4–10 days, and includes a reproductive stage where fruiting bodies grow from the ant's head, rupturing to release the fungus's spores.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophioc...s_unilateralis

For other examples of parasitic mind control see this article.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...nce-halloween/

In humans memeplexes can act as parasites where the individual's fitness is sacrificed for some cultural objective. Celebrate priest and suicide bombers being two examples. Group selection is another example but it remains fairly controversial.

In general empathy and altruism are recognized as features of complex social animals but they are easily overridden by cultural influences. Considering the complexity of instincts and culture it is not surprising that progress in understanding their interaction is slow.
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  #141  
Old 31 Mar 16, 21:31
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Interesting. You are saying that a conscience is innate and an integral part of what it means to be human : so a sense of what is right and what is wrong is built-in regardless of culture ?
Yup - in my opinion it can be no other way - it is social culture that affects how one responds (or not) to their conscience which, of course, starts in the family.
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  #142  
Old 31 Mar 16, 21:33
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Thank you. It's an interesting field.
So does your average terrorist, after killing and maiming hundreds of innocents, suffer terrible pangs of conscience ?
Maybe, maybe not. You could look at abortion is exactly the same light. Society says we are just a bunch of animals so it doesn't matter if we abort fetuses or not yet most, if not all, of the women who have had abortions report some type of guilty conscience concerning it regardless of their social upbringing and this even leads to many people who have had abortions ending up catching cancer from the guilt itself.
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  #143  
Old 31 Mar 16, 21:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theoferrum View Post
Maybe, maybe not. You could look at abortion is exactly the same light. Society says we are just a bunch of animals so it doesn't matter if we abort fetuses or not yet most, if not all, of the women who have had abortions report some type of guilty conscience concerning it regardless of their social upbringing and this even leads to many people who have had abortions ending up catching cancer from the guilt itself.
73 Studies Have Examined Abortion and Breast Cancer, 53 Show Higher Risk

Quote:
‘First, it is universally accepted that having a child decreases a woman’s risk of breast cancer, because the maturation of the cells in the breast into milk-producing cells renders them less susceptible to becoming cancerous. Second, pregnancy hugely increases the number of breast cells vulnerable to cancer. A live birth provides enough time for these “progenitor cells” to differentiate into more mature, more cancer-resistant cells. Therefore, abortion leaves a woman’s breasts with more places for cancer to start than were there before the pregnancy began.’

He then goes on to explain why the relative risk in Bangladesh might be so high:

‘Why such a high relative risk? That’s because almost all women in Bengladesh get married and start having children before they are 21, and breast-feed all their children as well. Consequently, breast cancer has been almost unheard of in Bengladesh, until recently.’

Of 73 worldwide studies since 1957 (including this latest) on the association of induced abortion and subsequent development of breast cancer: 53 studies show an association, and 15 studies show no association. See specifics here.
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/08/19/7...w-higher-risk/

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that woman are designed to have childern and that not doing so will carry health risks.

The same may apply for men.

The Link Between Sex and Prostate Cancer

Quote:
The research also suggested that men who said they'd never had sexual intercourse were nearly twice as likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer as those who weren't virgins. Men who had slept with more than 20 women were not only markedly less likely to get any type of prostate cancer, but experienced a 19 percent reduction in diagnoses with aggressive types of prostate cancer. Of the men surveyed, about half had been diagnosed with prostate cancer between September 2005 and August 2009, while the other half were part of a healthy control group.
http://www.livescience.com/48858-lin...te-cancer.html

Trying to reduce biology to simple algorithms is a fool's errand.

Last edited by wolfhnd; 31 Mar 16 at 22:00..
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  #144  
Old 01 Apr 16, 06:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Well for a start, the British Empire banned slavery long before the US did - and it didn't take a Civil War to do it.
Thirty years isn't a very long time. 1833-1863

Laws banning the slave TRADE became law in the US in 1808, one year after the UK's ban on the slave TRADE. Slavery continued until outlawed in 1833 in the Empire, still didn't stop it. Slaves of the CSA were freed in 1863, but that didn't end slavery in the US.

I find this time line interesting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolit...avery_timeline

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  #145  
Old 01 Apr 16, 16:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theoferrum View Post
Maybe, maybe not. You could look at abortion is exactly the same light. Society says we are just a bunch of animals so it doesn't matter if we abort fetuses or not yet most, if not all, of the women who have had abortions report some type of guilty conscience concerning it regardless of their social upbringing and this even leads to many people who have had abortions ending up catching cancer from the guilt itself.
That's quite a good analogy, but women still undertake abortion in considerable numbers so it might also indicate that individual social /religious conditioning varies from person to person.
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  #146  
Old 01 Apr 16, 17:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Thirty years isn't a very long time. 1833-1863

Laws banning the slave TRADE became law in the US in 1808, one year after the UK's ban on the slave TRADE. Slavery continued until outlawed in 1833 in the Empire, still didn't stop it. Slaves of the CSA were freed in 1863, but that didn't end slavery in the US.

I find this time line interesting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolit...avery_timeline

True enough, but there was no slavery - at least admitted- in Britain itself. It was never an accepted institution and an integral part of society.
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  #147  
Old 01 Apr 16, 19:07
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
An interesting change of perspective, save that:

1. it deals with the relationship between England and the colonies as if the latter already were a "legitimate government" and a sovereign power;
2. it shows you are another poster who has not read the paper linked to and object of the discussion.

If you had read it, you would have found that the author makes an example. Suppose one of the many self-proclaimed militias in the USA started stockpiling huge amounts of military-grade weaponry and explosives. Wouldn't it be the right - actually, the duty - of the US government to disarm these criminals and make sure they are no longer a threat to the peace and stability of the country?

Naturally, the US government would today try to employ police rather than military forces, and local forces (say a state's National Guard) rather than federal forces. Unfortunately the English government had not been wise enough to make sure they had such means, or at least not in size and scope sufficient to deal with the threat. They had a hammer and thus saw the problem as a nail.

In other words, you can make a political and policy point concerning the English reaction to the colonists' stockpiling of guns and powder. You could say the English were unwise - not that they were in the wrong. If the Malheur Reserve standoff had been concluded by an assault of the FBI SWAT, you could make a point that it was unwise, not that the US federal government was not in the right.

Note that full-fledged military force against rebels (in the present-day example above, that would mean using the US Army instead of the FBI) is outdated today, but it was the stock reaction back then. You don't need to look very far in time or place: look up the whiskey rebellion. The US sent more than ten thousands of its soldiers to deal with a few hundred tax dodgers. I don't think you could argue that one even has to consider whether the principles of just war should apply to this US governmental decision.
I read part of it, too long of a biased view IMO, but I think the author is missing a key point. For so long the colonists were left alone and left to govern themselves for all practical purposes. What changed? The 7 Years War. This is what he misses when the author repeats the line that they were not oppressed. The author ignores that by accepting Parliament's authority to tax them without representation, the colonists would have been giving up their self governance that had been in place for hundreds of years. In this case you have a struggle between two authorities the authority of the local colonial governments that had been governing the Colonists for about a hundred years, and the authority of Parliament that after leaving the Colonies out of site for so long is trying to re-establish its authority. That sort of dynamic is not in play in the case of the Whiskey Rebellion and the Malheur standoff. It is this situation why I do not believe Parliament was just in using military force to suppress the rebellion.

Also, right intention and other Just War conditions I do believe apply to governments. If the government realized that by forcefully ending the Malheur standoff it would set off a full blown rebellion, they have the moral duty to seek a more peaceful solution. In the case of Malheur, I would argue the opposite is true that by not acting you are encouraging future violent acts.
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  #148  
Old 07 Apr 16, 04:09
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Originally Posted by Jimmy_Bob View Post
I read part of it, too long of a biased view IMO, but I think the author is missing a key point. For so long the colonists were left alone and left to govern themselves for all practical purposes. What changed? The 7 Years War. This is what he misses when the author repeats the line that they were not oppressed. The author ignores that by accepting Parliament's authority to tax them without representation, the colonists would have been giving up their self governance that had been in place for hundreds of years.
That would be an interesting point, even still a debatable one, if it were true. But actually, throughout the early history of the North American settlements, the settlers kept revolting against this or that policy or governor they disagreed with, they achieved some temporary successes, and then the authority of the companies, or governors, or directly of the English crown was reasserted. Concessions were made, and surely the settlements enjoyed wide local autonomy; but they were never formally independent. Even the written constitution of the "Constitution State" was then simply inserted into, well, a Royal Charter. That is the sort of document that was granted by the King to market towns in England. It defined specific rights, but - obviously - did not amount to the town becoming an independent state.

Sure I can understand that they did not want to see that wide local autonomy curtailed. But that is, again, a political issue. This fact does not make them into the legitimate independent authorities, as states on their own, that is required to declare a just war.
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Old 07 Apr 16, 05:15
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Would you like to google 'what was the largest volunteer army of all time'?

But lets not get deflected from the OP topic ay!

Paul
Would you like to see why so many volunteer?
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