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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #121  
Old 09 Aug 14, 10:33
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
However, the way in which the British government went about it was ham-handed and overbearing and definitely changed the manner in which the colonies were governed.
You are keen in describing Britain as ham-handed and overbearing. (Iím still waiting for evidence from diplomatic channels that this was the case prior to the War of 1812). And are Americans really that fragile and touchy-feely, that they need to be handled as delicate glass?

Ingratitude is a sharper child than a serpentís tooth as Britain and later, George Washington, discovered. Just as well for the rebels that France shelled out, paying for the Revolution.

Britain took great care to make taxes acceptable and equitable to the colonies. The Stamp Act for example Ė only about 70% of the British equivalent - was to be administered by colonists (a Stamp Distributer in each colony) and not by British officials. Notice had been served in March 1764 to prepare the way and it was not implemented until the following February. Along with the 1764 molasses duty the revenue was calculated to cover just one third of the cost of the annual army cost with UK taxpayers funding the rest.

It is fallacious that Britainís tax measures were heavy burdens. It is likewise fallacious that at the time duties were imposed they were implemented with a heavy or insolent hand.
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  #122  
Old 25 Aug 14, 16:00
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The biggest mistake the British made in my opinion was not totally blockading all the ports and not letting any supplies in until the colonies changed their ways. Had they kept the French out the colonies couldn't have afforded to supply an army. Without supplies the colonies would have been devastated and begging the British for help in a short while. Of course that's just my opinion.
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  #123  
Old 25 Aug 14, 16:30
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Originally Posted by Bearskin View Post
You are keen in describing Britain as ham-handed and overbearing. (Iím still waiting for evidence from diplomatic channels that this was the case prior to the War of 1812). And are Americans really that fragile and touchy-feely, that they need to be handled as delicate glass?

Ingratitude is a sharper child than a serpentís tooth as Britain and later, George Washington, discovered. Just as well for the rebels that France shelled out, paying for the Revolution.

Britain took great care to make taxes acceptable and equitable to the colonies. The Stamp Act for example Ė only about 70% of the British equivalent - was to be administered by colonists (a Stamp Distributer in each colony) and not by British officials. Notice had been served in March 1764 to prepare the way and it was not implemented until the following February. Along with the 1764 molasses duty the revenue was calculated to cover just one third of the cost of the annual army cost with UK taxpayers funding the rest.

It is fallacious that Britainís tax measures were heavy burdens. It is likewise fallacious that at the time duties were imposed they were implemented with a heavy or insolent hand.
Oh . . . still bitter are we that the Colonies threw off the brutally oppressive yoke of the Mother Country?

Of course, as you must know, the main issue was the Colonies insistence that if they were taxed they wanted representation.

"Heavy burdens" or not, "implemented with a heavy or insolent hand" or not . . . take it up with the Colonists. Their feelings are clearly reflected in the record.

As for the rest of your post, those pejorative statements can be safely ignored.

Sorry. Edited a couple times, hence the my post and the post below by mark does not match.
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Last edited by TDurden; 25 Aug 14 at 17:08..
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  #124  
Old 25 Aug 14, 16:37
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Originally Posted by GShipe View Post
The biggest mistake the British made in my opinion was not totally blockading all the ports and not letting any supplies in until the colonies changed their ways. Had they kept the French out the colonies couldn't have afforded to supply an army. Without supplies the colonies would have been devastated and begging the British for help in a short while. Of course that's just my opinion.
Well they wanted to but just couldn't do it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_o...olutionary_War

The part about the French is arguable.
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  #125  
Old 25 Aug 14, 16:57
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V great post

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Originally Posted by TDurden View Post
Oh . . . still bitter are we that the Colonies threw off the oppressive yoke of the Mother Country?

You failed (conveniently) to mention that the main issue by far was the Colonies insistence that if they were taxed they wanted representation.
"Heavy burdens" or not, "implemented with a heavy or insolent hand" or not . . . take it up with the Colonists. Their feelings are clearly reflected in the record.

As for the rest of your post, those pejorative statements can be safely ignored.
Allowing proportional representation to the UK parliament would have opened the 'Pandora's box"- a demand for the equivalent in the "home counties.'

Britain's major failing was perpetuating a system of "pocket and rotten boroughs'.

For example the town of Manchester, which expanded rapidly during the Industrial Revolution from a small settlement into a large city, prior to 1832 was merely part of the larger county constituency of Lancashire and did not elect its own MP's to represent its own particular and special interests.

Each of these ancient boroughs elected two members to the House of Commons. By the time of the 1831 general election, out of 406 elected members, 152 were chosen by fewer than one hundred voters, and 88 by fewer than fifty voters.[1] By the early 19th century moves were made towards reform and this political movement was eventually successful, culminating in the Reform Act 1832, which disfranchised the rotten boroughs and redistributed representation in Parliament to new major population centres.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotten_and_pocket_boroughs
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  #126  
Old 25 Aug 14, 17:06
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
Allowing proportional representation to the UK parliament would have opened the 'Pandora's box"- a demand for the equivalent in the "home counties.'

Britain's major failing was perpetuating a system of "pocket and rotten boroughs'.

For example the town of Manchester, which expanded rapidly during the Industrial Revolution from a small settlement into a large city, prior to 1832 was merely part of the larger county constituency of Lancashire and did not elect its own MP's to represent its own particular and special interests.

Each of these ancient boroughs elected two members to the House of Commons. By the time of the 1831 general election, out of 406 elected members, 152 were chosen by fewer than one hundred voters, and 88 by fewer than fifty voters.[1] By the early 19th century moves were made towards reform and this political movement was eventually successful, culminating in the Reform Act 1832, which disfranchised the rotten boroughs and redistributed representation in Parliament to new major population centres.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotten_and_pocket_boroughs
I'll take your word for it. Opening up a Pandora's box, or not, that's what the Colonists wanted.

Whether or not it was a just request I suppose could be argued either way.
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  #127  
Old 25 Aug 14, 17:17
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Originally Posted by TDurden View Post
I'll take your word for it. Opening up a Pandora's box, or not, that's what the Colonists wanted.

Whether or not it was a just request I suppose could be argued either way.
I'd say that it was a very just request, but it had wider implications.

The British system 'almost fell apart', and most "home British' felt no particular need to support war against the colonies

Old Sarum in Wiltshire, an uninhabited hill which until 1832 elected two Members of Parliament, the most notorious pocket borough. It was a possession of the Pitt family from the mid-17th century to 1802, and one of its Members of Parliament was Prime Minister William Pitt the Elder. In 1802 the Pitt family sold it for £60,000, even though the land and manorial rights were worth £700 a year at most. Painting by John Constable, 1829
From wiki.

another British 'rotten borough' was entirely under the sea, except for a rock pinnacle- with an inhabited lighthouse.
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  #128  
Old 25 Aug 14, 17:27
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Originally Posted by GShipe View Post
The biggest mistake the British made in my opinion was not totally blockading all the ports and not letting any supplies in until the colonies changed their ways. Had they kept the French out the colonies couldn't have afforded to supply an army. Without supplies the colonies would have been devastated and begging the British for help in a short while. Of course that's just my opinion.
A blockade would have require heavy naval taxation in Great Britain, which would have produced the demand for 'naval tax and parliamentary representation reform.'

By 1775 the British system was in need of another revolution. Eventually, in1832, they got the 'Great part' right.

Oliver Cromwell fought off universal suffrage. The secret ballot had yet to be invented. If he had had it, Great Britain would have been a republic to this day...
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  #129  
Old 25 Aug 14, 18:08
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
I'd say that it was a very just request, but it had wider implications.

The British system 'almost fell apart', and most "home British' felt no particular need to support war against the colonies

Old Sarum in Wiltshire, an uninhabited hill which until 1832 elected two Members of Parliament, the most notorious pocket borough. It was a possession of the Pitt family from the mid-17th century to 1802, and one of its Members of Parliament was Prime Minister William Pitt the Elder. In 1802 the Pitt family sold it for £60,000, even though the land and manorial rights were worth £700 a year at most. Painting by John Constable, 1829
From wiki.

another British 'rotten borough' was entirely under the sea, except for a rock pinnacle- with an inhabited lighthouse.
Thank you mark. I shall get a book to read on the British take of all that, the Revolution, and implications in Britain, etc. Could be very interesting
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  #130  
Old 02 Feb 16, 03:44
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The best book on the subject is the men who lost America. It places the blame for Rodney allowing the French fleet free to get to Yorktown.

Though I think the worst mistake was Howe not marching towards Burgoyne. Saratoga brought the French and Spanish and Dutch into the war. It also turned the Colonies into a Secondary Theatre. After that it was all over.
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  #131  
Old 20 Feb 16, 14:59
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What was the key mistake the British committed that caused them to lose control of American North America?
Their biggest mistake was pissing off the wrong person and I'm not referring to Washington.

If you doubt what I say then ask yourself this - why did both leading Generals in the War both chose a location named York to finish the war.

Washington sat on his ass for the first half of the year "mesmorized" (Fereling, Almost a Miracle) with trying to take back New York (which everyone knew was a suicide mission) and didn't budge until Cornwallis went up and sat on his ass in Yorktown. As soon as he did that, Washington gave up on New York and beat feet to Yorktown to accept Cornwallis' surrender.

If you don't know why this occured then you don't know your American Revolutionary History...

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Old 20 Feb 16, 15:08
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The best book on the subject is the men who lost America. It places the blame for Rodney allowing the French fleet free to get to Yorktown.

Though I think the worst mistake was Howe not marching towards Burgoyne. Saratoga brought the French and Spanish and Dutch into the war. It also turned the Colonies into a Secondary Theatre. After that it was all over.
And why didn't Howe assist Burgoyne?

Because he got bogged down in Phillie.

And, why was he bogged down in Phillie (against the Crowns orders)?

Cause General Charles Lee suggested it knowing it would be a quagmire for him.

Did the "best book" tell you about that?

Did the "best book" tell you who the first person to suggest we declare our Independence from England was?

No, it didn't, did it?
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