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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Warfare by Other Means

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Warfare by Other Means Economics, demographics, cultural, technological, and other factors that have affected the course of history.

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  #16  
Old 30 Aug 15, 11:11
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Taieb el-Okbi - Oh, please, just read up on what the early Islamic accounts say Muhammad himself said and did regarding 'Jihad' - particularly in his latter years against what he percieved as Infidels, including Jews and Christians.

Yes I am glad that many 'Muslims' are either in ignorance, or choose to ignore the latter years of Muhammad's focus, since it cuts down the 'fundamentalist activists' to more manageable numbers.
  #17  
Old 30 Aug 15, 11:17
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Sheikha Moza bint Nasser’s insights on anti-Muslim double standards

Sheikha Moza bint Nasser, the Chairperson of the Qatar Foundation for Education, Science and Community Development, recently published an insightful op-ed in Newsweek about the double standards in our national discourse on Islam and modernity.

Among the points she makes is that “Othering” Muslims into a singular, scary foreign mass, and equating that mass with the worst fringe elements of Muslim societies while ignoring the achievements of Islamic civilization, is at the heart of what she calls “Muslimphobia.” On the contrary, Islam has always been diverse and pluralistic since the very beginning. She writes:

Let me remind you, however, that Islam has never been monolithic but has from the start been a vast container for diverse cultures and ethnicities. The homogenization of Muslims into a fearful and unknowable “Other,” separate from the beauty and nobility of Islam and its civilization, is at the root of Muslimphobia.


The problem is that Islam, as understood by scholars and academics, is far removed from many laypeople who get their information about Islam from blowharding bloggers, pompous pundits, and fragmentary media soundbytes. The challenge for us is that we need to take this academic knowledge and make it more accessible to ordinary people searching for answers on the web. She says:

People turn more and more to the Internet for information about Muslims and Islam. Yet intelligent resources remain on the shelves of academic journals, inaccessible to average citizens. We need to connect the academic study of Islam with the public who is seeking information, just like we need to consider the needs of young Muslims looking to their traditions for tools to build a new modernity.

This is a really important point. Most people who fall for anti-Muslim memes don’t mean harm, but rather they’ve been misled by a professional Islamophobia network. All they need is some good information and a little kindness. That’s a jihad we can all partake in.


http://myjihad.org/2015/06/sheikha-m...ble-standards/
  #18  
Old 30 Aug 15, 12:13
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One of the founding fathers of the USA, Thomas Jefferson, held an interest in Islam. Jefferson was an honorable man whose diplomatic skills have IMO helped to shape the USA into a great country.

On December 9th, 1805, Thomas Jefferson hosted the United States' first iftar at the White House. It was an unintentional event, one that occurred as a result of Jefferson's scheduled meeting with an invited envoy from the Tunisian government. It was the end of the first Barbary War, and Jefferson was anxious to establish better diplomatic relations with the North African states while ensuring the security of American interests in the Mediterranean. Upon being informed of the envoy's fasting to observe the Islamic month of Ramadan, Jefferson had the mealtime at the White House changed from 3:30 in the afternoon to "precisely at sunset" in an effort to accommodate his guest. This gesture on behalf of the president was not simply a diplomatic one, but one that demonstrated Jefferson's familiarity and comfort with Islam, a faith that interested him since his time as a student at the College of William & Mary. Indeed, Jefferson's interest in the Qur'an and his own study of Arabic led to his active promotion and eventual creation of an Oriental Languages department at his alma mater. As a scholar and a diplomat, Jefferson was keenly aware and interested in the world outside of America and the importance of cultural and intellectual capital to the success of the United States. In studying his Qur'an and the documents that he produced as a part of his nation-building efforts, we see just how Jefferson deployed his knowledge and perhaps how influential Islam was to of one of the nation's founding fathers.


http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/...jefferson.html

I find it undiplomatic to suggest Jihad, which is a part of the Muslim religion is the problem. I agree with GWB in the sense that AL Qaeda is a terror group where as Islam is a peaceful religion.
  #19  
Old 30 Aug 15, 12:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
Taieb el-Okbi - Oh, please, just read up on what the early Islamic accounts say Muhammad himself said and did regarding 'Jihad' - particularly in his latter years against what he percieved as Infidels, including Jews and Christians.

Yes I am glad that many 'Muslims' are either in ignorance, or choose to ignore the latter years of Muhammad's focus, since it cuts down the 'fundamentalist activists' to more manageable numbers.

Be straight up with me as I will tell you how I truly feel about subjects.

You have continuously told me that that Islam is an intolerant religion. In response I have compared your views of Islam to how some folks view Judaism as an intolerant religion. I have also pointed to Muslims who suggest that ISIL is going against Islamic values.

So how do you feel about my view that your views of Islam are similar to folks who suggest that Judaism is an intolerant religion. And what are your thoughts on Muslims who suggest that ISIL is going against Islam?
  #20  
Old 30 Aug 15, 17:41
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Taieb el-Okbi - Actually, Judaism is by and large not so much an 'intolerant' religion as one that traditionally saw itself as 'special', and as Yaweh's 'chosen people' they tended to, and the oxthodox still do, exhibit an air of isolationism regarding the goyim, the non-Jew. Most non-orthodox are less isolationist and by and large take folks as they are percieved to be.

I have my reservations about just how much of the old state of Israel the zionists wish to grab back, but I can also understand, given their history and being surrounded by several and larger hostile nations, that they wish to have some buffer land, and that they may over-react when Islamic Jihadists chuck the odd rocket at them or launch other forms of attack.
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Old 30 Aug 15, 17:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
A thread titled defeating Jewish Mitzvahs would be just as incorrect as this threads title. Jihad, like Mitzvahs are a part of Judaism, is a part of Islam.


Jihad means to feed the poor, eliminate homelessness, and for example fight the Nazis during WW2 as many Muslims did. Jihad means to fight ISIL, to make the world a better place. I can understand how a Muslim would be upset with some person who views ISIL as Jihadists. Suggesting that ISIL or Al Qaeda are carrying out Jihad is like saying a Mitvah means to kill innocent non Jews.
The Muslims performing the so-called "terrorist" actions refer to what they do as Jihad, and anyone being honest about Islam would acknowledge that there are different forms of Jihad. This thread is in response to the Islamists/Jihadists whom view themselves as fundamentalists of Islam and follow Muhammad's example and command;

"I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah."

From;
Book 001, Number 0033:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...t.php#001.0033

One may find Numbers 0030, 0031, 0032 of related interest as well.

Taieb, much of what you post I find offensive and insulting, but am willing to let you prattle on your drivel, so others can see how off the mark you are.
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  #22  
Old 30 Aug 15, 17:46
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Some of the relating passages of the Koran, addressing the mandate of Jihad and rewards for engaging in such, etc.;

[2.154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.
[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[8.38] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
[8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.36] Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
[33.26] And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
[33.27] And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
[47.5] He will guide them and improve their condition.
[47.6] And cause them to enter the garden which He has made known to them.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html
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  #23  
Old 30 Aug 15, 19:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
A thread titled defeating Jewish Mitzvahs would be just as incorrect as this threads title. Jihad, like Mitzvahs are a part of Judaism, is a part of Islam.


Jihad means to feed the poor, eliminate homelessness, and for example fight the Nazis during WW2 as many Muslims did. Jihad means to fight ISIL, to make the world a better place. I can understand how a Muslim would be upset with some person who views ISIL as Jihadists. Suggesting that ISIL or Al Qaeda are carrying out Jihad is like saying a Mitvah means to kill innocent non Jews.
Great point.

Why is it that the Jewish God, the Christian God or Muslim God are usually considered separate entities?

They are the same God worshiped differently.
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  #24  
Old 30 Aug 15, 20:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
The Muslims performing the so-called "terrorist" actions refer to what they do as Jihad, and anyone being honest about Islam would acknowledge that there are different forms of Jihad. This thread is in response to the Islamists/Jihadists whom view themselves as fundamentalists of Islam and follow Muhammad's example and command;

"I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah."

From;
Book 001, Number 0033:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...t.php#001.0033

One may find Numbers 0030, 0031, 0032 of related interest as well.

Taieb, much of what you post I find offensive and insulting, but am willing to let you prattle on your drivel, so others can see how off the mark you are.
If your offended by the view that the 3 religions of Abraham are peaceful then this is your decision. What you can not do though is lie about my views of Jews, which you have done in the past,and this is pure garbage on your part. If your offended by my posts then this is up to you. But If at any point in the future you suggest that I am against Jews, I will report your post.

You post on a daily basis about how you think that Islam is an intolerant religion while paying no attention to what Muslims who speak out or even fight against ISIL have to say.
  #25  
Old 30 Aug 15, 20:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
If your offended by the view that the 3 religions of Abraham are peaceful then this is your decision. What you can not do though is lie about my views of Jews, which you have done in the past,and this is pure garbage on your part. If your offended by my posts then this is up to you. But If at any point in the future you suggest that I am against Jews, I will report your post.

You post on a daily basis about how you think that Islam is an intolerant religion while paying no attention to what Muslims who speak out or even fight against ISIL have to say.
Don't dispute me, dispute the words of Muhammad, and the Koran which are cited by the Islamists and Islamic Jihadists engaged in violence as justifying their actions and being their instructions from Allah.

Try using Hindus, or Mormons, or Aztecs when comparing other religions to Islam. Your constant use of the Jews makes you sound too close to a neo-NAZI.

While condemning IS/ISIL/ISIS how about doing the same for Hezbollah, Hamas and the other Shia/Jihadist/Terrorist groups of Muslims.

Your bias, distortions, propaganda are blatant.

BTW, I don't consider Islam a religion of Abraham, nor do I find the final messages/instructions of the Koran and Hadith peaceful, which is why I cite the specific "chapter and verse" when I can.
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Old 30 Aug 15, 23:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
Step one is incorrect as well as being pointlessly offensive to Muslims.

[repetitive semantic exercise deleted]

...
I am not surprised that you chose to focus on Mr. Stewart's editorial decision to use the terminology the militants themselves have adopted while ignoring the thrust of his arguments. There are key strategic distinctions between ISIL and al Qaeda that influence how best each can be fought. Given your vociferous opposition to all things ISIL, I would have hoped that you would at least have considered the thrust of his comments on this topic. Mr. Stewart understands his audience and how best to communicate with it. You have a great deal of work to do.

Jihad: I am perfectly aware that there are multiple interpretations of the proper application of this term within Islam. However to deny that entire schools of Islamic thought consider varying degrees of violence against infidels as valid expressions of jihad is to ignore both history and the events taking place in front of your eyes.

As I've stated before, you have no say about what is and is not Islam. That is being decided on the battlefield, just as it always has been.
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Old 31 Aug 15, 02:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Great point.

Why is it that the Jewish God, the Christian God or Muslim God are usually considered separate entities?

They are the same God worshiped differently.
The same God claim, is one that can be and is actually robustly challenged by an academic historic appraisal of Islamic tracts and evidences.

The Islamic 'Allah' is a cut and paste job, largely based upon Muhammad's compilation, that did indeed include non-Messianic Arabised bits from Judeism and Gnostic types of Christianity, but also from Zoroastrianism, polytheism, and probably even some of 'himself'. Indeed as Aisha, Muhammad's 'favourite' wife is said to have reflected on at least one occasion - ""I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." Which can of course be taken as affirming his favour in 'Allah's' eyes, but taken in context more likely is a critical reflection on how Muhammad always seemed to conveniently have his own 'get out of gaol' card ready.
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Old 31 Aug 15, 06:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Don't dispute me, dispute the words of Muhammad, and the Koran which are cited by the Islamists and Islamic Jihadists engaged in violence as justifying their actions and being their instructions from Allah.

Try using Hindus, or Mormons, or Aztecs when comparing other religions to Islam. Your constant use of the Jews makes you sound too close to a neo-NAZI.

While condemning IS/ISIL/ISIS how about doing the same for Hezbollah, Hamas and the other Shia/Jihadist/Terrorist groups of Muslims.

Your bias, distortions, propaganda are blatant.

BTW, I don't consider Islam a religion of Abraham, nor do I find the final messages/instructions of the Koran and Hadith peaceful, which is why I cite the specific "chapter and verse" when I can.
Post reported. You are far far out of line. You think you can bully people who suggest the 3 religions of Abraham are peaceful, well you cant...

Stop making up lies about me. It is one thing to disagree with the view that Islam and Judaism are peaceful, its another for me to tell you that you are Anti Black or for you to tell me that I am Anti Jewish.
  #29  
Old 31 Aug 15, 09:02
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Thread closed for mandatory cooling down period.
In the mean time - do something constructive - go to the park, visit a zoo.

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