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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Orders of Battle

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Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

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  #1  
Old 26 Feb 15, 08:41
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TE for German Motor & Mech units in France 1942?

Sources for equipment of the German motorized & armored divisions/corps in France in late 1942 are sought. Primarily I am trying to get a grip on the amount of French equipment used in the October-December period.

Any thumbnail descriptions would be appreciated as well.

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 26 Feb 15, 13:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
Sources for equipment of the German motorized & armored divisions/corps in France in late 1942 are sought. Primarily I am trying to get a grip on the amount of French equipment used in the October-December period.

Any thumbnail descriptions would be appreciated as well.

Thanks
French equipment was spread everywhere. A lot of it ended up on the Eastern Front. The Bekker conversions are the same way. The Afrika Korps got a large number of Lorraine schleppers with 150mm guns on them as artillery for example.



You'd likely have to look this up unit by unit to get any idea what was being used where.
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  #3  
Old 26 Feb 15, 21:50
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So far the units histories have produced some fragments. Not yet enough to get my teeth into. Any recommendations from anyone for this would be great.

Some French equipment, other than trucks, went to the Easter Front in 1942. Some tanks went to the Italians, the Rumanians may have accquired artillery.
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Old 26 Feb 15, 23:38
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A lot of German units rebuilt in France were given ex-French equipment. Many French Tanks were converted to SP Artillery and Jagdpanzers. A lot of French 75's were used as ersatz antitank guns until they could be replaced. The Romanians were already using some French and Czech Artillery at the beginning of the war.

The most famous example of French equipment in a German Panzer Division was the 21st Panzer Division. They sent ex-French tanks at the Normandy Landings.

The Germans also raised two SS Panzergrenadier Divisions in France later on. My bet is the Gotz von Berlichen and Reichsfueher SS got French equipment.

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Old 27 Feb 15, 01:06
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The Romanians got some H39 to supplement those they already had in service. These went into the armored division they formed in late 1941.

Neither 16th or 17th SS (GvB and RFSS) got much in the way of captured equipment. They both were formed with stuff from German stock. RFSS, in particular.

I would suggest going over to the Axis History Forum and perusing the thread on captured equipment as well as asking there.

For example there is a post on pg 11 of this thread towards the bottom:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...3596&start=150

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 27 Feb 15 at 01:35..
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  #6  
Old 28 Feb 15, 17:12
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Thanks. A few more small details there. I'd asked around AHF a couple years ago & got some vague answers. Somewhere there are documetns showing periodic reports of equipment on hand in each division, but none seem to be in anyones reach. I expect a few weeks of persistant search will turn up something.
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Old 11 Mar 15, 19:49
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Hello!
I./Pz.Rgt. 11 of 6. Pz.Div. reported 7x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and 38x Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f) on 9th May 1942. On 31st July they reported 10x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and 47x Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f). On 14th November the war diary of Pz.Rgt. 11 reported that the regiment was fully equipped, so I would assume that the French tanks had been replaced by German tanks by then (by 31st November Pz.Rgt. 11 had certainly been equipped with German tanks).
Pz.Rgt. 25 of 7. Pz.Div. reported 8x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and 41x Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f) on 9th June 1942. On 31st July they reported 10x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and 47x Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f). What happened in the next few months is unclear to me, but by 31st November Pz.Rgt. 25 was fully outfitted with German tanks as well.
Pz.Rgt. 7 of 10. Pz.Div. reported 4x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and 38x Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f) on 18th May 1942. On 27th May the regiment reported 7x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and 38x Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f). By 5th August 1942 11x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and 64x Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f) had been handed over to III./Pz.Rgt. 202 and the regiment had received German tanks instead.
Possibly I. and certainly III./Pz.Rgt. 202 (the future Pz.Rgt. 26) of 26. Pz.Div. were also outfitted with Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f). But I don’t know how many, but 26. Pz.Div. still used 12x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and 38x Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f) on 1st March 1943.
I./Pz.Rgt. 202 was also outfitted with French tanks. AFAIK all the units used the same TOEs hat called for 2x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) as command tanks, 16x Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f) and 41x Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f) in each battalion.
Pz.Abt. 213 which was subordinated to the 319. Inf.Div. on the Channel Islands was equipped with 10x normal Pz.Kpfw. B2 740(f) and 26x Pz.Kpfw. B2 740(f) of the flamethrower version all throughout 1942.
Then there was Pz.Abt. 223 which used a mix of Pz.Kpfw. 35S 739(f), Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735(f), Pz.Kpfw. B2 740(f) gun tanks and flamethrower version.
Pz.Kp. 81 was equipped with 20x Pz.Kpfw. 35R 731(f) and 2x captured Churchill tanks.
Pz.Kp. 100 had 20x Pz.Kpfw. 35R 731(f) as well.
Additional French tanks were used in a number of tank platoons employed by the ordinary Inf.Div. in France. Usually FT-17s but generally everything available.
AFAIK Div. General Göring used only German tanks. Ditto for the SS-Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf.
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Old 11 Mar 15, 23:52
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Naga
thank you very much for that. Is it correct you are drawing this from copies of the original German documents, or is it from some other source?

Your description shows a higher number of German tanks at hand at the end of 1942. Were those tanks sent to the Eastern Front when the division was sent, or did they remain for a new formation to train with?
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Old 12 Mar 15, 03:22
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Hello!

The German tanks went with the units to the frontline. I used primary and secondary sources, primarily Panzer-Tracts 19-1 by Jentz/Regenberg and "Beutepanzer unterm Balkenkreuz" by Regenberg.
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Old 12 Mar 15, 08:41
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Again thanks. This is very helpful
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