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  #1  
Old 10 Feb 15, 10:39
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Battle of Kalinin October 1941

During Typhoon there was a neglected operation designed to achieve a third encirclement after the Vyzama-Bryansk pockets.

Defense of Moscow 1941, The: The Northern Flank

http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Moscow...ense+of+moscow

Quote:
It was in response to these orders and directives, representing a concept originating at OKH and OKW and therefore with the approval of the Fuhrer, that Panzer Group 3 and elements of Army Group North were sent plunging northwest and southwest, in an attempt to destroy the last intact Soviet Front between Lake Ladoga and Rostov. The objective was nothing less than the encirclement and destruction of seven armies; 22nd and 29th Armies of Western Front and the Northwestern Front’s 11th, 27th, 34th Armies and Novgorod Army Group, and the Stavka’s independent 52nd Army. The result would have been another gaping hole in the Soviet front, stretching over 300 kilometers (200 miles) from Kalinin on the Volga River to south of Chudovo on the Volkhov River. In space, it would have been larger than either the Smolensk or Vyazma encirclement battles, although it would have contained fewer Soviet troops, approximately 200,000 men.
The operation failed within a week, and so has been forgotten. As a result, the Battle of Kalinin is not seen, as it should be, as the defeat of a major German operation aimed at Northwestern Front, but instead as part of the initial phase of the Battle of Moscow.

Last edited by Cult Icon; 10 Feb 15 at 15:11..
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  #2  
Old 11 Feb 15, 17:26
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Hello,
Great you have this book i miss it.

The offensive to Kalinin is one of the last epic rush made by a Kampfgruppe in the 1940-42 style, across defeated and retreating enemies. Smaching trucks and "rolling field kitchen".
But then all is said : creating a pocket with a weak battle group to capture another 200 000 men ... and without supplies.

The ninth Army never fully recovered from the summer offensive and defensive battles. After Viazma this army is just able to cover Ar Gr Centre, but OKH decided to pursuit two rabbits at the same time to finish poorly in an attrition battle.

This rush to Kalinin shows that mud was not the main problem, they made 75 km in few days, but not towards Moscow.
As i said in the thread "last gap to Moscow", around the last week of october germans had the info and field reports to ask to themselves what to do. The last failure at Tula the 31th oct should have given the warning to OKH that the momentum to surround Moscow was past : the center is unable to progress against a stiff resistance, while in the north (kalinin) and the south (Tula) despite that the soviet are "over" according to german's intel and OKH dreams, they are stuck against reservist, workers and NKVD troops... and T34 .

Maybe you will have details about PZ Gr3 that give is infantry to 9th Army to hold Kalinin, manpower that lacked after.
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  #3  
Old 11 Feb 15, 22:13
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Order of Battle:

9 AOK

Quote:
On October 2nd, the day 9th Army began its advance, Strauss’s army consisted of four army (infantry) corps (XXVII, V, VIII and XXIII) with fifteen infantry divisions, including one (the very weak 161st Infantry) in army reserve. Also loosely subordinate to 9th Army was Colonel General Hermann Hoth’s Panzer Group 3, with two motorized corps (XXXXI and LVI) and, the strong VI Army Corps, with a total of three panzer divisions, two motorized infantry divisions, and three infantry divisions. Depending on the situation, the panzer group could be subordinate to 9th Army, or directly under the control of Army Group Center.


XXXXI Korps (mot.)


1. Pz, 36. ID (mot.), 6.ID, 900 Lehr. Brigade

Arko 30 (4 battalions of artillery)

10. Flak Regiment

101 Pz. Battalion ( flamethrower tanks)

52.Pioneer Battalion

506th Bicycle Road Construction Battalion

3 Bridge columns

vs.

29.A

119. RD, 243. RD, 246.RD, 250. RD, 252. RD

Separate Rifle Brigade (mot.)

29. Calvary Regiment

30.A

5.RD, 256.RD, 3 rifle regiments, 2 motorcycle regiments, 21st Tank Brigade

Operational Group Vatutin

8th Tank Brigade, 46. motorcycle regiment, 183. RD, 185.RD, 46. Calvary division, 54. Calvary division

Kalinin Front: 133 RD

---------------------------

Of the Soviet units: 8th Tank Brigade and 133.RD had the most combat value.

Last edited by Cult Icon; 12 Feb 15 at 00:36..
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  #4  
Old 12 Feb 15, 01:17
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Did you read it or didn't get around to yet?

I have only read part of it, and so far I see it as an reckless encirclement operation made up on the fly by Brauchitsch and it was approved by von Bock. They got 2 pockets, and wanted 3- probably due to greed and enthusiasm. The supply situation for XXXXI Korps (mot.) was so bad that only 1 regimental sized kampfgruppe from each division could be moved at once.

The commander of 1.Pz protested against the order, but went along.

I can see why the operation was attempted: the Vyazma-Bryansk pockets were the most easily won pockets for the Wehrmacht in Barbarossa, with 673,098 prisoners in exchange for negligible losses and time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by grosnain View Post
Hello,
Great you have this book i miss it.

The offensive to Kalinin is one of the last epic rush made by a Kampfgruppe in the 1940-42 style, across defeated and retreating enemies. Smaching trucks and "rolling field kitchen".
But then all is said : creating a pocket with a weak battle group to capture another 200 000 men ... and without supplies.

The ninth Army never fully recovered from the summer offensive and defensive battles. After Viazma this army is just able to cover Ar Gr Centre, but OKH decided to pursuit two rabbits at the same time to finish poorly in an attrition battle.

This rush to Kalinin shows that mud was not the main problem, they made 75 km in few days, but not towards Moscow.
As i said in the thread "last gap to Moscow", around the last week of october germans had the info and field reports to ask to themselves what to do. The last failure at Tula the 31th oct should have given the warning to OKH that the momentum to surround Moscow was past : the center is unable to progress against a stiff resistance, while in the north (kalinin) and the south (Tula) despite that the soviet are "over" according to german's intel and OKH dreams, they are stuck against reservist, workers and NKVD troops... and T34 .

Maybe you will have details about PZ Gr3 that give is infantry to 9th Army to hold Kalinin, manpower that lacked after.

Last edited by Cult Icon; 12 Feb 15 at 01:24..
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  #5  
Old 15 Feb 15, 07:07
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No i haven't read it was not availlable in my book shop, haven't tryed by other ways.
The map is 10th october, no problem for me to pursuit, futhermore inside a gap. I don't see the "northern pince" from AGN having the same oportunity.
Kalinin on the 15 th october with a little Kampfgruppe, but the defensive fights started the next morning. They start to go to Torzhok on 18 oct with the few remaining mobile elements available. I guess that they would have finished to encircle 200 000 hundreds men with a forward platoon taking the russian's Western-Kalinin Front PC by a "coup de main".

Anyway what is to be seen is that germans never learned about russian resiliance : they have the same case 15 days later at Tula, they can't take the city but still think that they can make it.
They forget Volokolamsk key city, while at the same time one of their best mobile group (10th PZD and Das Reich) have heavy fights just to progress few km/day against stiff russian resistance.

At tactical level germans had good coordination between units, it seems that at operational level germans were unable to deal with the events.
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Old 15 Feb 15, 19:37
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"Sharp", an ACG poster, is in fact the co-author of the book:

A lot of related info about the battle:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ghlight=stahel
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Old 16 Feb 15, 13:36
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I didn't know this thread.
Very good infos from "Sharp" and his view about the failure of the General Staff and the commanding chain to Army level.

This is what i saw when first i red Forczik, knowing nothing about Moscow's battle : something has gone wrong far away from any military doctrine and basic management of the events as they come days after days.

I was not far from the truth when saying that a platoon of the first PZD could won the battle by itself ...
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Old 17 Feb 15, 20:58
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Stahel's Typhoon book has information about the dire logistics situation with AGC and XXXXI Korps, which was 150 KM ahead of 9.AOK. The maps in the book are from Glantz' Atlases, which essentially show the XXXXI Korps holding Kalinin and being separated from 9.AOK for many days, during which Vatutin and other commanders surround the Korps. LW Fliegerkorps air-drop munitions and fuel, but it is not enough.

The situation is eventually relieved as the rest of 9.AOK moves up and connects with Kalinin, forming a new front but the damage had already been done.

XXXXI Korps started Typhoon at around 40% combat strength (manpower) and was down to around 20% by the end of the month. 1.Pz had 99 runners, and was down to 34 runners by the third week of Oct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grosnain View Post
No i haven't read it was not availlable in my book shop, haven't tryed by other ways.
The map is 10th october, no problem for me to pursuit, futhermore inside a gap. I don't see the "northern pince" from AGN having the same oportunity.
Kalinin on the 15 th october with a little Kampfgruppe, but the defensive fights started the next morning. They start to go to Torzhok on 18 oct with the few remaining mobile elements available. I guess that they would have finished to encircle 200 000 hundreds men with a forward platoon taking the russian's Western-Kalinin Front PC by a "coup de main".

Anyway what is to be seen is that germans never learned about russian resiliance : they have the same case 15 days later at Tula, they can't take the city but still think that they can make it.
They forget Volokolamsk key city, while at the same time one of their best mobile group (10th PZD and Das Reich) have heavy fights just to progress few km/day against stiff russian resistance.

At tactical level germans had good coordination between units, it seems that at operational level germans were unable to deal with the events.
Yes, at Borodino. The Typhoon Pz. were uneven in composition- most were only half-divisions in combat manpower.

Of these, their armor was at 1/5th (with only 40-60 tanks running). There were only a couple decent strength divisions.

2 full strength, fresh divisions (2.Pz and 5.Pz) and two that were half or 1/3rd strength in armor (10.Pz , 7.Pz). 1. Pz had 99 runners. 4.Pz something similar.

The Wehr top leadership thought that the way to Moscow was effectively clear after they eliminated 950,000+ Soviets. They based their subsequent operations on this wrong assumption and their logistics situation was dire & did not correlate with operations. The forward Air Bases feeding Kesserling's 2. LF were substandard and the Wehr had lost about 40% of their trucks and cars and a large share of their horses since June 22nd, 1941. The mobility and logistical self-sufficiency of their formations were impaired. The operational pause after Kiev was too short, and the supply bases on the Gomel line were inadequate for needs. The rail distance was too great, which compounded the truck shortage.

Their units were worn down, and not at the same level of capability as at Minsk, Kiev or Smolensk.

Last edited by Cult Icon; 18 Feb 15 at 02:54..
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  #9  
Old 25 Feb 15, 14:00
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The wehr top leaders were right to think that Moscow was possible to reach but :
Too much optimistic they bet that russians are over, so they engage the Ninth Army to an another objective for exemple.
Despite what is happening on the field during middle-late october they don't questionning themselves, in fact they just "produce" another jump.
It took them six to eight weeks to stockpile in August at Smolensk but they think that they can provide supplies in two weeks, early november, far in the east of Smolensk...
Manpower situation as been well described by Sharp.

Cult, have you seen the transfer of men from PZ Gr 3 to Inf divisions holding Kalinin ?
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Old 25 Feb 15, 16:11
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Give me some time..I am about 86/230 with this book but currently I am doing Smolensk.

Typhoon was reasonable until mid-October. Afterwards, it was over-reach.
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Old 26 Feb 15, 13:04
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Oh yes, who would not try to double after Viazma-Briansk ?

No problem we have time.
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Old 26 Feb 15, 14:42
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Indeed, although I see that the quartermaster's evaluation should have been taken more seriously. The mobile groups that went for Kalinin, Mtensk, and Tula simply could not perform to an adequate level due to the parlous state of supply. That should have been kept more in consideration- If bock saw to attack/exploit immediately, he should have concentrated on one or two axis' IMO as he did not have means to do all three at once in Oct. 1941. By spreading his resources thin, he was rebuffed everywhere.

It looks to me that Kalinin was the most profitable of the three axis' and the main effort should have been made there.

Regarding this subject and Typhoon, I have a few additional materials to read:

-Halder war diary
-Bock war diary
-Typhoon, Stahel
-Battle of Moscow, Stahel
-Guderian, Panzer Leader for reference

Of interest is the allegation of Kluge "Clever Hans" seeing the writing on the wall, and sending misinformation to OKH/AGC about the situation with 4th Army. Kluge was set-piece commander who did not like to advance until logistical issues were settled and pockets dealt with.

He kept his army virtually out of the fight in Typhoon using a series of excuses. When the soviet winter counter-offensive came, his was the strongest army with already established winter/defensive positions.

As a reward for this 'activity', Hitler fired 8 out of 30 senior commanders, and promoted Kluge to CO of Army Group Center....!

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Old 26 Feb 15, 15:28
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10.Pz and SS-Reich at Borodino



PzGruppe Guderian, towards Tula


Last edited by Cult Icon; 26 Feb 15 at 15:37..
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Old 28 Feb 15, 16:37
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At first we have to consider that the germans pushed everywhere they had the means to do it.
The problem is that they are delayed everywhere, as if pockets victories never happened (a week before !) and that each new KM is costly.
Waiting or try to make it ? Untill end october attacking can be an option, but then clearly decided knowing the price and the "tempo" : if not decisive then stocpile and defence.
Another option is to focus one axe in one push.
Mozaisk line seems never to broke.
Tula is far.
Kalinin is north.
... and Moscow so close.

P.S the new messages are not dated on WW2 forum page.
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Old 01 Mar 15, 21:36
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Op.Typhoon pg. 81-82, Stahel:

Quote:
On 6 October Brauchitsch met with
Hitler to present the OKH’s latest directives for Bock’s army group.154
Hitler was satisfied, and the next day the commander-in-chief of
the army flew to Bock’s headquarters to discuss the next phase of the
offensive. On Bock’s northern wing, Hoth’s Panzer Group 3 would
be charged with making a long advance to the north-east and seizing
first Rzhev and then Kalinin
(today Tver).155 As Bock recorded
Brauchitsch’s explanation, the move was intended ‘to bring about the
collapse of the enemy front facing my left wing and the right wing
of Army Group North’.156 Thus Army Group Centre was now looking
to roll up the right flank of the Soviet North-Western Front – and
that was to be achieved by a single panzer group after an advance over
200 kilometres to reach Kalinin. Indeed it was just as far from Viaz’ma
to Kalinin as it was from Viaz’ma to Moscow, yet those two objectives
were 160 kilometres apart, meaning Hoth could render little immediate
aid, if required, to the drive on Moscow. Bock was also sceptical of
striking towards Kalinin, but succumbed to the prevailing conviction
Bock’s encirclements at Viaz’ma and Briansk
that the Red Army was nearing its end. As he wrote in his diary on
7 October: ‘I am not in total agreement with the drive to the north by
Panzer Group 3. Perhaps it will be spared me, for the heavy blow
inflicted today may result in the enemy, contrary to previous Russian
practice, yielding opposite my front as well; some signs point to that.
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