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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #16  
Old 27 Aug 14, 22:00
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
In the 1980's Israel pursued a policy of relative full, daily migratory employment in the WB and Gaza Strip. the program was relatively successful in the short term. In the long term, the failure to develop viable local entrepreneurs meant that talented people found outlets elsewhere.
If the Palestinians did not receive outside Arab funding and motivation, especially for groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, they would clean up their acts a who lot faster and find peace with Israel. The original refugees were 77,000, how the heck did it get to 5.7 million in half a century? Things can't be that bad if they are breeding like rabbits, and why would people of "Palestinian" heritage willingly migrate back to a hellhole?
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  #17  
Old 27 Aug 14, 22:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
If the Palestinians did not receive outside Arab funding and motivation, especially for groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, they would clean up their acts a who lot faster and find peace with Israel. The original refugees were 77,000, how the heck did it get to 5.7 million in half a century? Things can't be that bad if they are breeding like rabbits, and why would people of "Palestinian" heritage willingly migrate back to a hellhole?
While there was rapid population growth, esp. before 1970, I believe you should check your numbers.
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Old 27 Aug 14, 22:31
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
While there was rapid population growth, esp. before 1970, I believe you should check your numbers.
I was going by memory. I am including not just Gazans but all Palestinians claiming refugee status as the UN program was originally founded and what is now. I could be wrong. What numbers do you have?
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  #19  
Old 27 Aug 14, 23:02
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Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
I was going by memory. I am including not just Gazans but all Palestinians claiming refugee status as the UN program was originally founded and what is now. I could be wrong. What numbers do you have?
Ok there is an extensive economic and demographic report form 1968 on the Gaza Strip undertaken by Israel. Its on line.

Lord Robert Peel , in the peel report of 1936-37, had extensive hopes for the Gaza area as the 'Palestine Wheat Corridor- Loess soils are very fertile , if you get water on it.

The Peel report is well worth reading.

which is NO DOUBT why few people pouting here have read IT.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ory/peel1.html
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Old 28 Aug 14, 01:15
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Thanks Marktwain - I always prefer reading original documents produced at the time.They are so much more revealing and of course the authors have no idea how events will turn out.

The Peel commission analysis of the situation is spot on.

"Chapter X. - Immigration

The problem of immigration has been aggravated by three factors:-- (1) the drastic restrictions imposed on immigration in the United States, (2) the advent of the National Socialist Government in Germany, and (3) the increasing economic pressure on the Jews in Poland.

The continuous impact of a highly intelligent and enterprising race backed by large financial resources on a comparatively poor, indigenous community, on a different cultural level, may produce in time serious reactions. "

Unfortunately only too true.
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Old 28 Aug 14, 05:56
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Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Scupio View Post
Thanks Marktwain - I always prefer reading original documents produced at the time.They are so much more revealing and of course the authors have no idea how events will turn out.

The Peel commission analysis of the situation is spot on.

"Chapter X. - Immigration

The problem of immigration has been aggravated by three factors:-- (1) the drastic restrictions imposed on immigration in the United States, (2) the advent of the National Socialist Government in Germany, and (3) the increasing economic pressure on the Jews in Poland.

The continuous impact of a highly intelligent and enterprising race backed by large financial resources on a comparatively poor, indigenous community, on a different cultural level, may produce in time serious reactions. "

Unfortunately only too true.
I read too much Exodus ( Leon Uris) style literature when I was young and then found out that some men, Like Robert Peel, really, really tried with limited resources to solve Palestine- and the British Mandate left the Place a much better Palestine than they found it.

Unfortunately, it was 1937, and Britain simply couldn't afford to pay debts, stagger out of the Depression, re - arm and carry out Peel's Plan.

Plus, the Arab leadership in Palestine was at an" all time low,' in the 1930's.
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Old 03 Oct 14, 04:33
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Good piece about a Jihadcentric society and the futility.

Why training Pakistanis helps them, and not us

by: Greg Sheridan, Foreign Editor

January 07, 2012
FOR Australia to provide military aid to Pakistan is the height of policy folly, not only futile but dangerously counter-productive, while there is very little chance of overall success in Afghanistan for the US-led coalition, of which Australia is part.
These are two disturbing conclusions I reached after two weeks recently spent talking to a wide range of figures in the senior reaches of the strategic community in India. The Indians have the best knowledge and understanding of Pakistan of anyone outside Pakistan itself. And they are not far behind on Afghanistan, where they have deep involvement and deep interests.
Naturally the Indian view of Pakistan is characterised by the decades of conflict between the two neighbours. But the depth of expertise is impossible to ignore. It's a bit like getting a view of Beijing from Tokyo, or a view of Indonesia from Singapore. Yes, you have to discount a little for the national bias, but you are dealing with immensely smart people, with peerless expertise, who spend a great deal of time thinking about the problem.
The question of military aid to Pakistan is particularly vexed. Australia, with no one noticing, has become the second-biggest supplier of overseas military training to Pakistan after the US. The government has not given a convincing rationale for this crucial development, and the opposition, negligently, has left the issue unexamined.
I have the gravest moral objection to providing military assistance of any kind to Pakistan while it helps the Taliban and the Haqqani network kill Australian soldiers in Afghanistan. But before I spoke to the Indians I thought that, morality aside, there was at least some semi-respectable strategic rationale for assisting the Pakistani military. Now I'm not so sure.
And on Afghanistan, there is no strategic rationale for what we are doing except to express solidarity with the Americans. That is a legitimate and important consideration, but it no longer outweighs the cost, especially the human cost of our dead and wounded soldiers, and the military futility of our activities.
Back to the Indian strategic analysts. Take Gopalaswarmy Parthasarathy, a former Indian ambassador to Pakistan and before that to Australia, author of a marvellous book on Pakistan, an intensely influential strategic commentator and an adviser to the Indian government.
"This entire Western strategy of believing military training will change the Pakistani mindset is misplaced," he says. "The Pakistanis have not changed their mindset but have absorbed the training and weapons, and do what they like with them."
Partha, as he is widely known, believes training such as that provided by Australia makes the Pakistani military more powerful but doesn't make it any more helpful to Western interests.
What does he think is the outlook generally for Afghanistan?
"Pakistan's policy has been one of running with the Taliban hare and hunting with the American hound," he says.
"The contradiction became salient when the Taliban stepped up its attacks on the US in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden was hidden by the Pakistani army."
Partha sees the key to Afghanistan's future lying in Pakistan's strategy for managing the large Pashtun population within its borders, and the similarly large Pashtun population in Afghanistan. "Pakistan has always feared the strengthening of Pashtun sub-nationalism," he says.
"No Pashtun on either side of the Durand line (the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan) has ever recognised it as an international border. The Pakistanis back religious extremism as a way to subsume this Pashtun sub-nationalism.
"As it is, in the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan there is de facto Taliban control. Should the Taliban take over greater control in Afghanistan as the Americans withdraw, you'll have a single Talibanised Pashtun entity from Kandahar in Afghanistan to the North-west Province in Pakistan."
The well-regarded Ajai Sahni, director of the Institute of Conflict Management and editor of the South Asian Intelligence Review, is almost incredulous that Australia is providing military training to Pakistan. "Every act of malfeasance from Pakistan earns a reward from the West," he says. "This (the training Australia provides to the Pakistani army) is exactly what the Americans have been doing for decades. Almost every senior Pakistani soldier has gone through a US training program, and there is no army in the world more hostile to the US than Pakistan's."
Sahni recites a long catalogue of Pakistani military involvement in terrorism, and then declares: "These are the people you are training and making more efficient. Training provides efficiency, it doesn't provide the social, intellectual and ideological context of Pakistan. It doesn't provide the purpose of action."
Sahni argues that Western policymakers, including Australians, fail to understand how deeply the organs of the Pakistani state, especially the military, are complicit in an extremist and jihad-centric view of the world. "It's not the madrassas that are the problem in Pakistan, it's the curriculum in their state schools and colleges. There is a strong component of jihad.
"You must understand that not everyone thinks like us, or like the West. Even if these people understand rationality, it is a rationality altered by their context. The Pakistani population has been under sustained ideological onslaught for 60 years.
"Everybody says get them computers, but so long as the ideology persists you'll just create computer-literate terrorists. Teach them English and you'll have English-speaking terrorists. The Taliban is not dangerous to you at the moment only because the jackasses couldn't get through your immigration screening."
On the strategic outlook for Afghanistan, Sahni is pretty pessimistic: "The Pakistanis want a proxy regime in Afghanistan. They understand they can't conquer the whole of Afghanistan, but they are engineering an absolute victory. Pakistan has resisted any possibility of an independent peace process.
"The quality of the Afghan army is not very good. It's either a mercenary army or a barely held together tribal force. The concept of a national army doesn't exist. It's held together only by money. I see a very quick dissolution if Western forces diminish beyond a certain point. The Taliban has been far-sighted in getting rid of key people. Whenever they see someone who compromises their interests, they kill him."
Ajai Shukla, an influential strategic writer for the Business Standard of India, thinks it frankly ridiculous Australia is providing military training for Pakistan. "It brings you the drawbacks without any benefits," he says. "I don't know why you do it. It has zero impact on their (Pakistani soldiers) socialisation. When you have a bunch of Pakistani soldiers going to Australia they will not return singing Australia's praises, but rather condemning the decadence of Australia.
"The biggest problem in Pakistan today is that the society is becoming more religiously and socially conservative, so the society is becoming radicalised. Eventually their nuclear weapons will fall into radical hands just by the passage of time.
"Pakistanis blame the upsurge in domestic terrorism on the war on terror, so they don't take the measures necessary to oppose these groups. Some of them are so closely linked to the Pakistani military they can't possibly take action against them."
Praveen Swami, the strategic commentator for the Hindu newspaper, tells me he has read all the internal strategic guidebooks for the Pakistani army over the past decade and more, and they make it clear that the West is an enemy of Pakistan and an enemy of Islam.
So will socialisation of the type carried out by Australian training change them?
"No," Swami says.
"From the Pakistani point of view, you're just messing things up for them. They believe the deal-making they're doing with the jihadi groups is paying dividends. Western engagement and training with the Pakistan army achieves nothing. The only time there is any traction comes from coercion. But I see plenty of carrots but no sticks for Pakistan."
It would be utterly foolish to disregard the insights of these high-class strategic thinkers on the grounds that is the sort of thing Indians will inevitably say about Pakistan.
We are embarked on a strategic relationship with India. No country has more experience in dealing with Islamist extremists on its border than India does. We should listen to these sober assessments. Nobody I met in India thinks Australia's offering military training to Pakistan makes any contribution or offers any dividend. Most thought it actively counter-productive.
I think they're right.
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