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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Colonial Era

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American Colonial Era 1660-1763 The growth of North American colonies, often with a change in native & national control.

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  #61  
Old 17 Aug 13, 23:44
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Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
Belgrave,
IMO I think you have a pretty good idea of the situation. I might add that they were men of the times, and were being proactive about the Protestant/Catholic schism that had launched so many wars in their history. I suspect the Jewish pogroms were also in the back of their minds. I agree that there were secular men in the room, but like ignoring slavery, I believe they were trying their best to get the best product possible with most of the glaring potholes covered.
I believe that George Washington did the best he could with the ideas available to him at the time.
Like those from the Ancient Greeks & Romans but also much closer to home from the Iroquois and other Native American tribes that greatly influenced the Presidency in America.
http://voices.yahoo.com/iroquois-dem...64.html?cat=37
Many of the fore fathers like George Washington were also practicing Free Mason's. http://www.nohoax.com/index.php?opti...&id=28&catid=1

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  #62  
Old 20 Aug 13, 14:14
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Originally Posted by revwarheart View Post
The eastern tribes were not as warlike as the western tribes; they didn't have to be -- resources were a-plenty and so they tended to settle more and the competition for hunting grounds and such was not as great because they also cultivated the land for food. The western tribes, on the other hand, lived on barren plains, didn't cultivate the land, and had to follow the same animal herds. I've had Native Americans describe these things to me themselves.

The eastern tribes tended to band together more often, too, so you get organizations like the Iroquois Confederacy, which even took in tribes from the coast that had been pushed inland by European settlers.
Wasn't the Iroquois League kind of built on conquest and subjugation of other tribes?

I live in what once was Iroquois land. They didn't live here - they only used it to travel thorough for hunting and war. The Confederacy also kept a tight rein on who could and could not settle on their land. We actually bought most of the Trans-Allegheny from the Iroquois. It's the Shawnee that we had the main problem with - naturally, they didn't recognize the Iroquois right to treat with their land.

I would say the EW tribes put up as good a fight as they possibly could. The assessment that if they'd fought harder in the beginning holds no water, and was probably tongue-in-cheek. One mitigating factor for the EW tribes is that so much was in flux in those early days - there was still hope that the Europeans would halt westward expansion. There were also two major European powers for the tribes to deal with - France and Britain - and many NA leaders attempted to play one off the other to get the better deal. They weren't stupid and they certainly weren't weaker than other Indians. It's just easier to look back after 300 years and be like, oh, if only they'd all gotten together (not that it would have helped that much).
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Old 20 Aug 13, 17:08
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Originally Posted by Shoeless View Post
Wasn't the Iroquois League kind of built on conquest and subjugation of other tribes?

I live in what once was Iroquois land. They didn't live here - they only used it to travel thorough for hunting and war. The Confederacy also kept a tight rein on who could and could not settle on their land. We actually bought most of the Trans-Allegheny from the Iroquois. It's the Shawnee that we had the main problem with - naturally, they didn't recognize the Iroquois right to treat with their land.

I would say the EW tribes put up as good a fight as they possibly could. The assessment that if they'd fought harder in the beginning holds no water, and was probably tongue-in-cheek. One mitigating factor for the EW tribes is that so much was in flux in those early days - there was still hope that the Europeans would halt westward expansion. There were also two major European powers for the tribes to deal with - France and Britain - and many NA leaders attempted to play one off the other to get the better deal. They weren't stupid and they certainly weren't weaker than other Indians. It's just easier to look back after 300 years and be like, oh, if only they'd all gotten together (not that it would have helped that much).
I think George Washington got the idea of voting for a Chief every 2-4 years from the Indians not the Greeks or Romans.
The Magna Carta was probably important to the fore fathers as well it's coming to Canada for a visit. https://www.google.ca/#fp=fc75d32bef...canada&tbm=nws
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  #64  
Old 20 Aug 13, 21:19
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Originally Posted by SmackUm View Post
I think George Washington got the idea of voting for a Chief every 2-4 years from the Indians not the Greeks or Romans.
The Magna Carta was probably important to the fore fathers as well it's coming to Canada for a visit. https://www.google.ca/#fp=fc75d32bef...canada&tbm=nws
I wonder, though, just how much influence the Iroquois Confederacy had on the framers. Is there much actual primary source evidence of them borrowing from the Indians, or is this all coming from claims of later historians and interpreters?

I honestly don't know, I've never really dug into it. Something about this claim has always come off rather specious to me. To be honest, it sounds like white-guilt revisionism.
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Old 20 Aug 13, 21:43
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Originally Posted by Shoeless View Post
I wonder, though, just how much influence the Iroquois Confederacy had on the framers. Is there much actual primary source evidence of them borrowing from the Indians, or is this all coming from claims of later historians and interpreters?

I honestly don't know, I've never really dug into it. Something about this claim has always come off rather specious to me. To be honest, it sounds like white-guilt revisionism.
You're being kind. (as you should be). But this has been nuts since it first came up. The social-conscious colonies had but one idea regarding the NA, and that was NOT "let's see what we can learn from their political or any other concepts!"
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Old 22 Aug 13, 05:37
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Originally Posted by Shoeless View Post
Wasn't the Iroquois League kind of built on conquest and subjugation of other tribes?
Oh, quite so, but I can't hammer home the fact enough -- they were not in a permanent state of war.

Quote:
I would say the EW tribes put up as good a fight as they possibly could. The assessment that if they'd fought harder in the beginning holds no water, and was probably tongue-in-cheek. One mitigating factor for the EW tribes is that so much was in flux in those early days - there was still hope that the Europeans would halt westward expansion. There were also two major European powers for the tribes to deal with - France and Britain - and many NA leaders attempted to play one off the other to get the better deal. They weren't stupid and they certainly weren't weaker than other Indians. It's just easier to look back after 300 years and be like, oh, if only they'd all gotten together (not that it would have helped that much).
I do not disagree with this. "The assessment that if they'd fought harder in the beginning holds no water, and was probably tongue-in-cheek." This could very well be true, but the fact that Western tribal members still say it is anthropologically of interest. And I definitely agree with that last part. There are many examples in European wars over the years to show that alliances are complex things, and there are reasons for them and against them, so that I don't think it could have ever been possible for ALL the natives to join together, not even against a common enemy.
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  #67  
Old 23 Aug 13, 17:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revwarheart View Post
There are many examples in European wars over the years to show that alliances are complex things, and there are reasons for them and against them, so that I don't think it could have ever been possible for ALL the natives to join together, not even against a common enemy.
There was quite a collection of them during Pontiac's Rebellion, which basically caused a mass exodus of my people from the transmontaigne, west of the Proclamation Line. It's awfully hard to drive out an invader when you have no firearms beyond what is traded for, let alone the fact that they didn't even have means beyond basic cold-forge metallurgy.
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Old 09 Jan 14, 21:57
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Chief wasn't a Indian word, it is a European word. The Cherokee called their leaders ChaCha's.
We, the white people came here and gave them these names as warriors, chiefs, etc. some tribes were matriarchal would you think the Indian enter hearing English would call a leader madam chief?
Even the tribal names that we use are bastardizations of the original indigenous language, the odds are the Indians first contacted by French trappers have a rather French sounding name, likewise the tribes whose first contact was with Spanish have names that sound Spanish.
Here is a few links that may help understand.

http://multilingualbooks.com/onlined...eamerican.html

http://www.native-languages.org/iroquois_words.htm

http://www.native-languages.org/cherokee.htm
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Old 10 Jan 14, 04:51
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I find it interesting and dumb that we concentrate so much time on the Pilgrims and the Plymouth Colony. The Jamestown Settlement was in existence for 13 years before the Pilgrims even found a rock to stand on yet it seems to have been pushed aside in American History.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...yond_Jamestown
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Old 10 Jan 14, 12:43
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I find it interesting and dumb that we concentrate so much time on the Pilgrims and the Plymouth Colony. The Jamestown Settlement was in existence for 13 years before the Pilgrims even found a rock to stand on yet it seems to have been pushed aside in American History.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...yond_Jamestown
Many people confuse Plymouth Rock which is in Massachusetts with Jamestown which was in Virginia.
All jokes aside, the earliest settlers who sailed from Europe may as well have been going to the Moon, in fact even then in Europe to say a family member went west, meant they died. Once you stepped on the ship you were never going to be seen or heard from again.
Even generations later men as educated as Thomas Jefferson still believed that mammoths and maybe even dinosaurs roamed the wilderness west of the Mississippi River.
It was the great unknown, as remote to the European mind then as mars.
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Old 10 Jan 14, 16:18
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And when ...

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Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
You are confusing Plymouth Rock which is in Massachusetts with Jamestown which was in Virginia.
All jokes aside, the earliest settlers who sailed from Europe may as well have been going to the Moon, in fact even then in Europe to say a family member went west, meant they died. Once you stepped on the ship you were never going to be seen or heard from again.
Even generations later men as educated as Thomas Jefferson still believed that mammoths and maybe even dinosaurs roamed the wilderness west of the Mississippi River.
It was the great unknown, as remote to the European mind then as mars.
... they did get west of the Mississippi, they still found Canadiens. Such were the difficulties presented by Appalachia, vs. traveling up the St. Laurent and Mississippi, and the incentives inherent in a commercial enterprise involving the First Nations such as the Fur Trade.

Incidentally, the Plymouth Colony, and the Massachusetts Bay Colony were separate and distinct entities with different roots until they were joined together as a "Province" under Crown Colony status, after the Glorious Revolution.
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Old 10 Jan 14, 16:37
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I find it interesting and dumb that we concentrate so much time on the Pilgrims and the Plymouth Colony. The Jamestown Settlement was in existence for 13 years before the Pilgrims even found a rock to stand on yet it seems to have been pushed aside in American History.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...yond_Jamestown
John you're so right. I've just started reading Russell Shorto's "The Island in the Center of the World" about the early Dutch colony of the New Netherlands and how the Dutch concepts of individual rights, religious tolerance, and free trade were traits that would become ingrained as core beliefs of the United States of America. Even though the English quickly dismissed the early Dutch era, it was this brief period (1624-1664) that really laid the foundation of what American society would be like, far more than the Puritan theocracy of New England or the planter aristocracy of Virginia and Maryland.
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Old 10 Jan 14, 18:16
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Also, ...

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John you're so right. I've just started reading Russell Shorto's "The Island in the Center of the World" about the early Dutch colony of the New Netherlands and how the Dutch concepts of individual rights, religious tolerance, and free trade were traits that would become ingrained as core beliefs of the United States of America. Even though the English quickly dismissed the early Dutch era, it was this brief period (1624-1664) that really laid the foundation of what American society would be like, far more than the Puritan theocracy of New England or the planter aristocracy of Virginia and Maryland.

... I don't want to offend, but Plymouth Rock is hugely overrated. The geese are a nice touch but it's hard to compensate for a distinct lack of ... rock.

To the Dutch I think you have to consider the later and also lasting influence of the Scottish colony in New Jersey, to the developing middle colonies. Rhode Island was also a melting pot of sorts, accepting of religious extremism and New England's castoffs.
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Old 17 Jan 14, 17:27
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We shouldn't overlook the brief existence (1638-1655) of the Colony of New Sweden on the western bank of the Delaware River in territory claimed by New Netherlands. Possibly their greatest contribution were the "Forest Finns" they hired as workmen, whose greatest skill was turning vast forested areas into farmland through "slash and burn" techniques. They had become a nuisance in Sweden, but their skills were perfect for America.

According to Shorto, these Finns were the originators of the classic American log cabin, and some of the first settlers to move inland and settle among the Natives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sweden

http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article152e.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Finns

http://americanswedish.org/NSH0C%202...al%20Flyer.pdf
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Old 17 Jan 14, 20:08
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Kiliaen van Rensselaer, first director of the Dutch West Indian Company, the most powerful supporter of the Charter of Freedoms and Exemptions, the most successful patroon of New Amsterdam, the only patroon that was recognized through out the Dutch, British and American Revolution and the creation of the US, surviving until the Rent Riots of 1840s. Not bad for a guy who started as a jewelers apprentice.
Rensselear Manor included Fort Orange and most central New York and all of what is now Albany NY. Originally called Beverwijck, or beaver trap. Dutch settlers were allowed passage to the new world and property tax free for ten years.
It was Rensselaer who financed Henry Hudson's explorations. Rensselaer and his descendents have been instrumental in the shaping of the US since 1620, I doubt any other single family has had the impact on any nation as the Rensselaer family has had on the formation of the US.
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute was founded by Stephen Van Rensselaer the eight patroon of the Rensselaer Manor in 1824, on his passing the estate was worth 68 million dollars.
Let's get the facts straight. While van Rensselaer supported his fief on the Hudson he was really trying to create his own "colony within a colony". He was only looking to reap the greatest profit for himself. He never personally came to America, he sent his agents with very detailed instructions, but NEVER set foot on this continent, so how could a money grubbing, absebtee owner be the father of our country? The man who could easily be that man was one of van Rensselaer's first agents, the first "lawman" in his domain, Adriaen van der Donck. Van der Donck was the first attorney in New Netherlands and it is because of his copious work against the Dutch West Indies Company that America evolved into the tolerant, trade driven society it became and was not just a Company outpost governed under martial law.
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