HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > East Asia and the Pacific

Notices and Announcements

East Asia and the Pacific China - Japan - Australia and challenges throughout East Asia.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #196  
Old 21 Jan 13, 19:47
lirelou's Avatar
lirelou lirelou is offline
General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Shaun M. Darragh
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lutz
Posts: 4,113
lirelou is simply cracking [600]
lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600] lirelou is simply cracking [600]
Yes, G-88, but Japan is claiming prior possession based upon the fact that the islands were uninhabited, ergo Terra Nullius in the early-mid 19th century. Now, if you go to this site, you'll see that there have been changes to how Terra Nullius is defined regarding Indigenous peoples.

http://www.nfsa.gov.au/digitallearning/mabo/tn_01.shtml

There are Taiwanese aboriginals inhabiting islands east of Taiwan, and obviously they are sea-going peoples. If any of those groups can establish a claim that they earlier inhabited the Daioyu islands, then they could well prevail in an international court. That being the case, Taiwan would emerge the winner, whether it remained the Republic of China or not.

Otherwise, due to proximity, I would favor Japan. That is my thinking now. There is no doubt that China claimed the islands, but there is no evidence that it ever settled them. The weakest claim for me is the PRC's.

Don, Taiwan legally remains the ROC. But whether or not it will continue to do so is a point of contention in Taiwanese politics. So the maintenance of any garrisons in the Spratleys is irrelevant. Considering that Taiwan possesses a large and vital fishing fleet, they might well decide to maintain any such garrisons after independence. Taiwan presently has the National Palace Museum, which was taken there in 1949. Until very recently it was the premier Chinese museum in the world. It may still be so. But independence would also open that bag of worms.

I see both Taiwan and Japan as having legal basis to their claims. However Japan developed as a maritime power before Taiwan did, and here I speak of Taiwan as it was in the 18th and 19th centuries, largely underdeveloped on land, but heavily engaged in (often illegal) trade with links stretching from Northeast to Southeast Asia.
__________________
dit: Lirelou

Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 22 Jan 13, 21:41
GMan88's Avatar
GMan88 GMan88 is offline
General
Philippines
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: manila
Posts: 4,968
GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
Yes, G-88, but Japan is claiming prior possession based upon the fact that the islands were uninhabited, ergo Terra Nullius in the early-mid 19th century. Now, if you go to this site, you'll see that there have been changes to how Terra Nullius is defined regarding Indigenous peoples.

http://www.nfsa.gov.au/digitallearning/mabo/tn_01.shtml

There are Taiwanese aboriginals inhabiting islands east of Taiwan, and obviously they are sea-going peoples. If any of those groups can establish a claim that they earlier inhabited the Daioyu islands, then they could well prevail in an international court. That being the case, Taiwan would emerge the winner, whether it remained the Republic of China or not.

Otherwise, due to proximity, I would favor Japan. That is my thinking now. There is no doubt that China claimed the islands, but there is no evidence that it ever settled them. The weakest claim for me is the PRC's.

Don, Taiwan legally remains the ROC. But whether or not it will continue to do so is a point of contention in Taiwanese politics. So the maintenance of any garrisons in the Spratleys is irrelevant. Considering that Taiwan possesses a large and vital fishing fleet, they might well decide to maintain any such garrisons after independence. Taiwan presently has the National Palace Museum, which was taken there in 1949. Until very recently it was the premier Chinese museum in the world. It may still be so. But independence would also open that bag of worms.

I see both Taiwan and Japan as having legal basis to their claims. However Japan developed as a maritime power before Taiwan did, and here I speak of Taiwan as it was in the 18th and 19th centuries, largely underdeveloped on land, but heavily engaged in (often illegal) trade with links stretching from Northeast to Southeast Asia.
Hi lirelou,

I would respectfully agree to disagree; personally I do not agree that proximity should be anyone's reason to strengthen/weaken any claim. But, thanks so much for your knowledgeable post.



Gman
__________________
"We have no white flag."
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 23 Jan 13, 01:44
Persephone's Avatar
Persephone Persephone is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Maggie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The Left Coast
Posts: 10,871
Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100]
Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100]
I would like to know "word for word" what's in the letter...


Quote:
Japanese envoy Yamaguchi offers to shelve dispute over Diaoyus
Wednesday, 23 January, 2013, 12:00am

Japanese representative arrives in Beijing on mission to 'normalise ties' and plans to hand letter from premier Shinzo Abe to Xi Jinping

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/artic...e-over-diaoyus
__________________

"A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 23 Jan 13, 02:43
GMan88's Avatar
GMan88 GMan88 is offline
General
Philippines
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: manila
Posts: 4,968
GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
I would like to know "word for word" what's in the letter...
interesting! heck, I don't mind not word for word, even just the gist!
__________________
"We have no white flag."
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 24 Jan 13, 14:12
IDonT4's Avatar
IDonT4 IDonT4 is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: East Coast
Posts: 2,455
IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200]
Don, Taiwan legally remains the ROC. But whether or not it will continue to do so is a point of contention in Taiwanese politics. So the maintenance of any garrisons in the Spratleys is irrelevant. Considering that Taiwan possesses a large and vital fishing fleet, they might well decide to maintain any such garrisons after independence. Taiwan presently has the National Palace Museum, which was taken there in 1949. Until very recently it was the premier Chinese museum in the world. It may still be so. But independence would also open that bag of worms. [/QUOTE]


Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
Contention does not make it otherwise. The One China policy is the dominant diplomatic doctrine of most nation in the world.
I see both Taiwan and Japan as having legal basis to their claims. However Japan developed as a maritime power before Taiwan did, and here I speak of Taiwan as it was in the 18th and 19th centuries, largely underdeveloped on land, but heavily engaged in (often illegal) trade with links stretching from Northeast to Southeast Asia.

I still don't understand the basis of why being a "historical" naval power gives Japan a better claim to the Senkakus. If China becomes a naval power in 20 years, does it give it a better claim to these islands 120 years from now?

Last edited by GCoyote; 05 Feb 13 at 08:23.. Reason: fixed quote tags
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #201  
Old 03 Feb 13, 15:58
Persephone's Avatar
Persephone Persephone is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Maggie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The Left Coast
Posts: 10,871
Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100]
Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100]
China have announced they will perform naval drills in the coming days, beyond where the Diaoyu Islands are located and where deep waters are ideal for anti-submarine drills.


Quote:
China to go ahead with naval exercise amid East China Sea island dispute with Japan
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...te-with-japan/
__________________

"A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 03 Feb 13, 18:24
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Summer Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 19,196
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
I hope they can dodge the underwater reefs and rocks! They have to sail past them to get to deep water.

Pruitt
__________________
Ted Nugent quote to the Troops: "It may be a week until deer hunting season, but its open season on a**holes all year long!"

Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?
Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 04 Feb 13, 22:31
Kevin Kenneally's Avatar
Kevin Kenneally Kevin Kenneally is offline
Colonel
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Kevin Kenneally
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Somewhere near, all the Babes
Posts: 1,960
Kevin Kenneally has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kevin Kenneally has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kevin Kenneally has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kevin Kenneally has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kevin Kenneally has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kevin Kenneally has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kevin Kenneally has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kevin Kenneally has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kevin Kenneally has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Island fever

Just wish the nations that want to control these islands would settle the issue and be done with this.

Or maybe a little "incident" near/on the islands might make the nations go to the negotiation tables......
__________________
Kevin Kenneally
Masters from a school of "hard knocks"
Member of a Ph.D. Society (Post hole. Digger)
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 05 Feb 13, 08:18
GCoyote's Avatar
GCoyote GCoyote is offline
ACG Forums - canis administrationem
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Gary C
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Posts: 17,410
GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Japan protest over China ship's radar action

Are we seeing the run up to an 'incident'?

5 February 2013 Last updated at 07:25 ET

Quote:
A Chinese vessel has locked its weapon-targeting radar on a Japanese ship, Tokyo says, amid mounting tensions over a territorial row.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21337444
__________________
Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

Questions about our site? See the FAQ.
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 05 Feb 13, 08:31
GCoyote's Avatar
GCoyote GCoyote is offline
ACG Forums - canis administrationem
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Gary C
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Posts: 17,410
GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+] GCoyote has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Okay, after reading the new posts, this sounds like the PRC's best strategy:

1. Support Taiwanese claims to the Diaoyu Islands under the working assumption of eventual reunification.
2. Establish a nominally Taiwanese corporation to explore and develop any energy resources found.
3. The Taiwanese corporation signs long term contracts for oil and gas deliveries to the PRC.
4. PRC politicians rake off profits at every step.
5. PRC uses 'giving' on this issue to demonstrate its 'reasonableness' while pushing other claims in the South China Sea.
__________________
Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

Questions about our site? See the FAQ.
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 05 Feb 13, 20:10
GMan88's Avatar
GMan88 GMan88 is offline
General
Philippines
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: manila
Posts: 4,968
GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200] GMan88 is walking in the light [200]
It appears their "best" (non-military) strategy is for CNOC to form a joint venture with a Taiwan company for exploration and extraction, no need to form any new "nominal" taiwanese company, just deal with any of the current ones.
__________________
"We have no white flag."
Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 07 Feb 13, 19:59
PitchRate's Avatar
PitchRate PitchRate is offline
Major
United_States
 
Real Name: Bob
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Mid-west
Posts: 1,004
PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100] PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100] PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100] PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100] PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100] PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100] PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100] PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100] PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100] PitchRate has demonstrated strength of character [100]
I have posted several of these videos in another thread below, however, I would recommend you listen to the remarks of CAPT James Fanell, Deputy Chief of Staff For Intelligence, U.S. Pacific Fleet. They occur in the video from approximately 21:13 to 32:00. It is a very interesting assessment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...kBBIqaOkbr85zb


Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 09 Feb 13, 16:29
Persephone's Avatar
Persephone Persephone is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Maggie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The Left Coast
Posts: 10,871
Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100]
Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100] Persephone is a pillar of the community [1100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Are we seeing the run up to an 'incident'?

5 February 2013 Last updated at 07:25 ET



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21337444

I'm still waiting for it to become a 'conflict'...

When the incident occurred, PLAN denied they targeted the Japanese destroyer...now Japan may release the radar data to prove their claim.



Quote:
9 February 2013 Last updated at 00:30 ET
Senkaku/Diaoyu islands: Japan may release China radar data

Japan says it may release evidence to prove a Chinese naval frigate locked its fire-control radar onto a Japanese ship near disputed islands.
Tokyo said it might release the data after Beijing rejected accusations it had targeted the destroyer last month.
The incident would be the closest the two countries have come to exchanging fire in the reignited dispute over the islands in the East China Sea

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21392248
__________________

"A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 09 Feb 13, 18:07
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Summer Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 19,196
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Why the delay after China denied the claim?

Pruitt
__________________
Ted Nugent quote to the Troops: "It may be a week until deer hunting season, but its open season on a**holes all year long!"

Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?
Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 09 Feb 13, 18:52
Anacreon's Avatar
Anacreon Anacreon is offline
Colonel
UK
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1,644
Anacreon has demonstrated strength of character [100] Anacreon has demonstrated strength of character [100] Anacreon has demonstrated strength of character [100] Anacreon has demonstrated strength of character [100] Anacreon has demonstrated strength of character [100] Anacreon has demonstrated strength of character [100] Anacreon has demonstrated strength of character [100] Anacreon has demonstrated strength of character [100] Anacreon has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Why the delay after China denied the claim?

Pruitt
My first guess is that the Japanese government were busy discussing whether they should respond to the Chinese denial, or if they should just let the latest incident die down.
__________________
Wargame identities:
Battletech:
President of the Bayan Confederacy
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:02.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.