Organization of Heavy Brigade Combat Team

[Pruitt]

Actually, you were supposed to have two, three or four Combined Arms Battalions. The problem was the Regulars told the Guard they had to use the two CAB formation and had to delete excess units! Now they are going back to three such CAB's will the Guard be allowed to raise new units? Not likely!

The Regulars will delete brigades to get that three CAB Brigade. Many of the old Guard Brigades like the Louisiana 256th Infantry Brigade is now Light Infantry! If they will let them raise a third LI Battalion and add some trucks for transport, I can live with it...

Pruitt

[johns624]

It's about time that they made combined arms battalions permanent units.

[berlin88]

Originally Posted by johns624

It's about time that they made combined arms battalions permanent units.

Previously, the Army was against a fulltime combined arms battalion, as they wanted to keep the Infantry and armor seperate. The Army wanted to be able to swap Infantry Battalions between the various brigades, so that meant keeping the infantry battalions intact. You can't take the HBCT Infatry battalion and put it in the IBCT if its half tank units.

For a time, the Army also wanted to be able to convert brigades from one type to another, such as IBCT to HBCT or HBCT to Stryker. They have done this on several occasions.

When converting to a 3 battalion armored brigade combat team, it was either the old format of 2x1 or 1x2, or a permanent combined arms battalions. The later thankfully won out, otherwise it would have been a brigade with more tanks than infantry or more infantry than tanks.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by TDK

Where exactly did you find this information about the 3xCAB ABCT?
I mean what link in google?
THX

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/02/24/au...up-to-13-bcts/

As far as I know, it was a proposed part of sequestration. Whether it has gone beyond the proposal stage I do not know.

Originally Posted by berlin88

Here is the link to what I found on google.

https://sites.google.com/site/usarmy...t-team-revised

In addtion to my seeking the latest TOE details for the ABCT (formerly HBCT), if anyone has recent TOE charts / numbers for the Infantry, Stryker, Division HQ Battalion, Fires, Sustainment and Aviation Brigades, those would be appreciated as well.

You might want to rethink that source. Considering the money that is about to be cut. Seems a bit unrealistic to be reactivating 2 Divisions and adding BCTs to the 7th as well as a bunch of other units in the regular army and guard.

Originally Posted by berlin88

Does anyone have a more recent version of FKSM 71-8 2011?

Probably not, FKSM stands for Fort Knox Supplemental Manual since the Armor School has moved from Fort Knox to Benning. I have a feeling the 2011 edition is it.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Pruitt

Actually, you were supposed to have two, three or four Combined Arms Battalions. The problem was the Regulars told the Guard they had to use the two CAB formation and had to delete excess units! Now they are going back to three such CAB's will the Guard be allowed to raise new units? Not likely!

There are three separate CABs in Kansas (2-137th), Ohio (1-145th) and South Carolina (4-118th) that could be added to various BCTs.

[Pruitt]

There are several more, as I hear Arizona and New Mexico actually converted units to Infantry. I think the affected states should be allowed to raise that third combat battalion they lost. Texas for instance a few years ago had an Armor Division with ten Armor and Infantry Battalions. Then it was announced they would become the 36th Infantry Division. Next it was announced that one Brigade would convert to Combat Support and the brigades would go Light Infantry. Result was Texas went from 10 combat battalions to four because all Guard LI Brigades had only two Infantry Battalions! Now they want to drop one of the four LI Brigades? My bet is they drop one of the two Texas Brigades and keep the Arkansas and Louisiana Brigades.

The Guards that lost that third Battalion due to 'reform' can return to the old battalion or raise a new one! Louisiana had an Armor Battalion (1/108th AR or 1/256th AR) and two Infantry Battalions (2, 3/156th IR). The 1/108th became the Recon Battalion. Now we have no organic transport because the Light Infantry don't rate it! This hurts our response to hurricanes when the guard has to beg and borrow trucks.

Pruitt

[GCoyote]

I was going through the latest version last night and noticed that none of the BCTs has an Air Defense Battery any more. Is that accurate or did the author just miss something?

[Freightshaker]

Originally Posted by GCoyote

I was going through the latest version last night and noticed that none of the BCTs has an Air Defense Battery any more. Is that accurate or did the author just miss something?

Being that Stingers and Avengers have been incorporated into lower echelon units, an outright ADA unit might not be needed.

[GCoyote]

I've got the May 2010 edition of FSKM 71-8 and I can't find any ADA weapons at all.

[Freightshaker]

Originally Posted by GCoyote

I've got the May 2010 edition of FSKM 71-8 and I can't find any ADA weapons at all.

I would think Stinger Platoons and Avenger Sections would be integrated into the line Bn's.

[GCoyote]

Originally Posted by Freightshaker

I would think Stinger Platoons and Avenger Sections would be integrated into the line Bn's.

Heh, that's were they were when I got to Germany in `81.

I've now gone through the entire document. No ADA weapons of any kind in any of the brigades or subordinate units.

I've uploaded it to the Yahoo group to see what the smart guys can come up with.

[Mountain Man]

I don't know if this will help shed any light, but the way it worked during the Cold War was that a heavy brigade was composed of two armor and three mech infantry battalions, plus support groups, one of which was an ADA battalion whose batteries were parceled out to the manuever battalions in the same way that the medical battalion parceled out its ambulance platoons.

For that reason, air defense weapons did not show up on the manuever battalion TO&E's, because they were not organic to those units, any more than the wheeled ambulances did.

[shrike6]

My understanding of ADA assets after modularization is that all ADA assets are controlled at Corps level and parceled out to lower echelons on an as needed basis.

[Merkava188]

I have to wonder who in their right mind would call any artillery unit a "fires" unit(i.e. Company,Batttalion,Brigade).I mean what was wrong with the calling them Field Artillery?that's what they are wether fire M777s or HIMARS or MLRSs thats what they are Feild Artillery

[Pruitt]

Hey, this is the new, improved Army! I wait with bated breath to see what they re-name Armor and Infantry!

Pruitt