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  #61  
Old 21 Jan 13, 22:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
You were highly trained in its use and were held responsible for the weapon and anything that happened with it. This instilled, I am assuming, a good level of responsibility with firearms that I can't find in the average citizen. I don't want to trust some neighbor I hardly know with his handling of a weapon like that...plain and simple. I've worked in a gun shop and have seen how irresponsible even police officers can be with the handling of their weapons.
I can deal with my neighbor being an idiot. I can't deal with a government of idiots who come to my doorstep without considerable means to say NO! to them.
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  #62  
Old 21 Jan 13, 23:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
You were highly trained in its use and were held responsible for the weapon and anything that happened with it. This instilled, I am assuming, a good level of responsibility with firearms that I can't find in the average citizen. I don't want to trust some neighbor I hardly know with his handling of a weapon like that...plain and simple. I've worked in a gun shop and have seen how irresponsible even police officers can be with the handling of their weapons.
I knew a Newark cop that got blasted on cocaine and then went out to abandoned lots to pop off a few, and then handed his weapon off to his buddies. I know one CO who bragged about feigning Russian Roulette with semi-automatic pistol in an attempt to get his wife off of his back about an extra-marital affair. And let's not forget the cops who hosed an unarmed man in Queens, striking their targets at a rate of only 54% -- but they did manage to shoot out the glass in a commuter train station a quarter-mile away.

Is that your idea of "a good level of responsibility with firearms that [you] can't find in the average citizen"?
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  #63  
Old 21 Jan 13, 23:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I don't agree with the decision and believe this will eventually be overturned or legislation will restrict the military weapons. Personally I can not stomach them and I think as the body count rises the politicians will have to ignore the NRA and yield to eventual public outcry to restrict them.

True and the amendment was written to let the populace be part of a militia at a time when there was no armed militia or police force. Now each town has police, counties and states as well and each state a national guard. I find it hard to see the U.S. armed forces being used against the people of this country, do you? If they were do you think the population will resist them with AR's. News flash: you can't stop an M-1 tank with an AR unless you get real lucky.

I believe it is the lawful citizen that is arming the criminals. Those guns came from legal hands at some point. I don't have a problem with protection by responsible healthy people that secure their weapons. They can use a shotgun...it is one hell of a deterrent.

Agreed...I just threw that out to raze the right wing masses.
Your silly suppositions and warped opinions of where the illegal firearms come from are groundless, completely unfounded and unproven by historical facts or any official documentation as usual. They are but more smarmy feeling-based twaddle hatched and supported by only the emotional driven twitchings of your mind. If you even bothered to read your nation's history, you'd soon see that the founding father's intended for all of the people of this nation to be the militia, with the exception of a few elected officials. Scroll forward and see that the militia system remained a joke throughout the nation until the years immediately preceding the Civil War, when both the South and North realized that war loomed in the near future. When war did break out, there were a number of regiments of well drilled, well trained State volunteer militia units on both sides ready to fight the good fight.

Re: "I find it hard to see the U.S. armed forces being used against the people of this country, do you?" You sure haven't been reading Slick Miester's thread documenting numerous instances of governmental abuses of their power, nor the hellish atrocities and losses of life of innocents that resulted from their actions over the past 75 years, have you?. More of your liberal progressive, cotton candy explanations that have no logic, nor weight in any court of law, but they sure do appeal to your feminine side, don't they?
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  #64  
Old 21 Jan 13, 23:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I know, I know. Please, start a blog. I want more.
Let me get this straight. You actually enjoy being held up for further ridicule for your all of your weird and illogical, childish views regarding this nation's official history and life? In all sincerity man, you really should seek mental help.
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  #65  
Old 21 Jan 13, 23:32
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You guys should all hole up in a bunker in Montana, it would be the ideal setting. I'm thinking johnbryan will be the comedic relief for the group.
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  #66  
Old 21 Jan 13, 23:34
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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
You guys should all hole up in a bunker in Montana, it would be the ideal setting. I'm thinking johnbryan will be the comedic relief for the group.
No, you're doing fine all by yourself...
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  #67  
Old 21 Jan 13, 23:36
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Originally Posted by johnbryan View Post
Let me get this straight. You actually enjoy being held up for further ridicule for your all of your weird and illogical, childish views regarding this nation's official history and life? In all sincerity man, you really should seek mental help.
Look at post #63. Priceless! Written by a man so frightened by life that he doesn't feel safe unless he's got guns and an attack dog. But don't take any step to reduce the number of guns on the streets...let's just keep living in your fear.
Go to Montana.
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  #68  
Old 21 Jan 13, 23:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Look at post #63. Priceless! Written by a man so frightened by life that he doesn't feel safe unless he's got guns and an attack dog. But don't take any step to reduce the number of guns on the streets...let's just keep living in your fear.
Go to Montana.
Too funny! If you only knew. My "attack dog" would probably lick you to death unless I gave him the right sign and command, or he felt threatened.. I live way out in the country where police participation and arrival is at least a half hour away, if they even have someone on duty on the night they're called. You're still fixated on guns, while living in a cloud-cuckoo land and doing your best to avoid mental health, aren't you?
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  #69  
Old 21 Jan 13, 23:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I don't agree with the decision and believe this will eventually be overturned or legislation will restrict the military weapons. Personally I can not stomach them and I think as the body count rises the politicians will have to ignore the NRA and yield to eventual public outcry to restrict them.
As much as we may agree or disagree with a Supreme Court decision(I think they were wrong on SB1070). They are the ultimate arbitrators of what the Constitution means. The USSC cannot be ignored, and the only way to override them would be to pass a constitutional amendment changing the cited portion of the Constitution itself. So love em or hate em, it is the current law of the land.


I cannot see Miller v US getting overturned anytime soon, it has stood since the 30's; and it sated that The Government could not ban weapons common to the 'militia', but could restrict other arms.(I'll note that Miller did not even attend as he was dead, it is the only challenge to the National Firearms Act of 1934 that went to the USSC)

McDonald v. US is not going to get overturned, as it enumerated the 2nd via the 14th to apply to the states. The USSC has never reversed itself on one of these.

At the best you may see Heller v. DC get changed, if the political leanings of the court change through appointment. I'll note that Heller was the case that stated you can regulate, but not ban weapons in the common usage. By all accounts the AR-15, AK-47(Semi auto variants of each) are produced and sold in the millions in the US; they are in every way in the common usage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
True and the amendment was written to let the populace be part of a militia at a time when there was no armed militia or police force. Now each town has police, counties and states as well and each state a national guard. I find it hard to see the U.S. armed forces being used against the people of this country, do you? If they were do you think the population will resist them with AR's. News flash: you can't stop an M-1 tank with an AR unless you get real lucky.
Whether or not things have changed does not change the Constitutionality of something. I should also note that current USC(United States Code) states that the 'Militia' is all able bodied men between 17 and 45 years of age.
Source; 10 USC 311: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

As to our own Government being turned against us; it is sad how soon we forget things such as Waco and Ruby Ridge. How we've allowed the Executive office to hunt down and kill US citizens in a foreign country with no trial, by using drones(Yemen, Anwar al-Awlaki, a US born, US Citizen).

As to fighting a modern military, I don't know if you have paying attention to what has been going on for the last ten years, but we've had a pretty difficult time in Iraq and Afghanistan. I myself have been on the receiving end of it during the Iraq campaign


Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I believe it is the lawful citizen that is arming the criminals. Those guns came from legal hands at some point. I don't have a problem with protection by responsible healthy people that secure their weapons. They can use a shotgun...it is one hell of a deterrent.
Yes, people are committing straw purchases and selling to criminals; I fully support going after those individuals and prosecuting them to the full extent of the law. Many other firearms also end up being stolen and then used. However, the dreaded 'assault weapon' is rarely used in crime, at statistically insignificant levels.
More assault weapons have been sold or allowed to walk to Mexico at the hands of our very own DOJ/ATF programs called 'Fast and Furious". This US Government programs allowed thousands of weapons to go to Mexican Cartels, and were used in the killing of a US BP agent and have direct ties to at least 300 murders in Mexico itself.
As for a shotgun, it has limited usefulness. It cannot be carried outside the home, has a heavy recoil for those of slight stature and is unwieldy to use inside a home.
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  #70  
Old 22 Jan 13, 00:42
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Johnbryan,could you tell me how many weapons of wich type do you own,if of course this is not forbidden .
And also ,what kind of attack dog do you have,by the way?
Thank you !
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Old 22 Jan 13, 02:14
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Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
Johnbryan,could you tell me how many weapons of wich type do you own,if of course this is not forbidden .
And also ,what kind of attack dog do you have,by the way?
Thank you !
Hi sebfrench76. I never said that I have any forbidden firearms, nor would I want any. I can get by with what I already have. Regarding my dogs. Any medium to large breed will suffice, as long as you train them properly from a very early age. In return, they will be devoted, endlessly friendly to everyone around them and will protect you in times of trouble. Welcome to the ACG Forums!..
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  #72  
Old 22 Jan 13, 02:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Find one place where I said we should ban guns. One place, please.
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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I'm not sure what else I would do. If there were a time when there were relatively few gun deaths then the pro gun crowd would simply say "What is your problem...this country is safe." The logical time to point out the horrors of gun crime is when gun crime occurs. Why wait? So the body count can climb?

Did you forget that there were people murdered, no matter how, or are you just too happy that it was done with a gun and that's all that matters?

Did you forget that there were people murdered or are you just so concerned with protecting someone's "right" to possess guns, no matter how lethal, and that's all that matters.

20 CHILDREN...can you hear their screams? Do you care?
If you're not advocating the banning of guns here, what are you trying to get at?
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  #73  
Old 22 Jan 13, 02:58
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Originally Posted by Naffenea View Post
If you're not advocating the banning of guns here, what are you trying to get at?
This is nothing new. He's just using his wailing, whining, PMS jim-jams to gain attention and win the support of like-minded women and ineffectual men who feel the same way that he-she does. Intelligent people of mental fortitude and backbone can quickly see through this for what it truly is; just another attempt by the gun-grabbers to rob us of our right to own firearms..
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  #74  
Old 22 Jan 13, 06:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I don't agree with the decision and believe this will eventually be overturned or legislation will restrict the military weapons. Personally I can not stomach them and I think as the body count rises the politicians will have to ignore the NRA and yield to eventual public outcry to restrict them.



True and the amendment was written to let the populace be part of a militia at a time when there was no armed militia or police force. Now each town has police, counties and states as well and each state a national guard. I find it hard to see the U.S. armed forces being used against the people of this country, do you? If they were do you think the population will resist them with AR's. News flash: you can't stop an M-1 tank with an AR unless you get real lucky.



I believe it is the lawful citizen that is arming the criminals. Those guns came from legal hands at some point. I don't have a problem with protection by responsible healthy people that secure their weapons. They can use a shotgun...it is one hell of a deterrent.



Agreed...I just threw that out to raze the right wing masses.
Way back when the States were debating ratification of the Constitution, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and James Madison wrote a series of essays (the Federalist Papers) in an effort to assuage concerns among the States that the Constitution would cede too much power to the central gov't. Madison's essays dealt primarily with the republican nature of the new Federal gov't.

Federalist #46 (1788) dealt with the balance of powers between the States and Federal gov't. Madison assured the States that the Federal gov't would never be able to subjugate the States through force of arms because we had an armed citizenry led by officers “chosen from among themselves.”
To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence.


This assurance was insufficient in the eyes of many delegates and conditioned ratification on the adoption of a Bill of Rights, modeled after Virginia's Declaration of Rights.

The Second Amendment was proposed in 1789 and ratified in 1791.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


In 1788, the “militia” consisted of all men, capable of bearing arms, their own arms. The purpose of the militias was to preserve the Sovereignty of the several States and to protect them from all potential threats, particularly the Federal gov't. It was assumed that all citizens would be as well-armed as any Federal soldier if they so chose.

All rights, enumerated or not in the Constitution, are natural. The Bill of Rights simply enumerated certain rights so important that George Mason and other Antifederalists demanded extra clarity in their protection. The Constitution did not create “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms.” It was a reminder to Congress that the Constitution awarded them no power to infringe on that right. The Second Amendment did give Congress some power to regulate the militias...
That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack.


In 1792, a musket was an assault rifle. People who wished to serve in the militias were required to bring their ow assault rifles. The Second Amendment preserved the individual “right of the people to keep and bear Arms,” because a “well regulated Militia” was “necessary to the security of a free State.” At the time these documents were written, many of the framers (Patrick Henry, George Mason, Thomas Jefferson, etc) viewed the Federal gov't as one of the greatest threats to the security of free States.

In the recent Heller decision, SCOTUS ruled that the evolution of the of militias to the National Guard (Mason, Henry, Jefferson & Madison would have rejected this) and the unsuitable nature of many modern military arms for personal use did not dilute the individual “right of the people to keep and bear Arms.”

Furthermore, in Federalist #78, Hamilton assured the States that the Court would have no power to interpret the Constitution. As the Supreme Law, the Court would have ascertain its meaning...

The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It therefore belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body. If there should happen to be an irreconcilable variance between the two, that which has the superior obligation and validity ought, of course, to be preferred; or, in other words, the Constitution ought to be preferred to the statute, the intention of the people to the intention of their agents.
SCOTUS has no constitutional power to interpret the Second Amendment in any manner other that its original meaning. So, if you don't like the original intent of the Second Amendment, all you need to do, is to convince 2/3 of both houses of Congress and 3/4 of the States to abolish or amend it.

Last edited by The Doctor; 22 Jan 13 at 06:36..
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Old 22 Jan 13, 09:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
SCOTUS has no constitutional power to interpret the Second Amendment in any manner other that its original meaning.
I agreed with you up until you got here.
This is why it is important to pick Justices well.
The are the finally arbitrator of what the Constitution means and allows/disallows. If the Supreme Court make up changes and they rule that certain classes of weapons can be ruled, they will be legally right within the frame work of the Constitution. Will they be wrong in our minds, yes.
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