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  #46  
Old 20 Jan 13, 10:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
I pulled these from sources I am using for the more in depth examination of the period 360-600.
Geoffrey Hindley – The Anglo-Saxons, 2006
Mucking, Essex – in the Thames Estuaruy. Early German settlement consisting of sunken huts (Grubenhauser), along with two cemeteries, dating from the early 400s. Thought to be foederati brought over to defend the coast. Grave goods noted the difference between Anglo-Saxon and Celtic broaches and belt buckles and numerous weapons and other ‘warrior’ goods.
Prittlewell Essex – Grave site dating from 500 – 700 holding remains of a great man in burial chamber with his spear, sword, shield, helm, gold belt buckle, drinking horns and folding camp stool. Surrounding graves also predominantly of the warrior class with heavy representation of weapons, gold buckles, broaches and even gaming peaces and drinking flagons.
Other finds near Canterbury at end of 4th C also speak to early 5th C arrival of German migrants.
John Haywood – Dark Age Naval Power, 1999
The longboats capable of 100 mile voyages under sail. Settlements in early 400s concentrated between the Humber and Thames with concentrations in the upper Thames Valley. Mid to late 5th C between Isle of Thanet and Portsmouth. Some finds in inland Sussex also date to the early 5th C.
Sutton Hoo – Essex – Edwin and Joyce Gifford
90’ long boat capable of reaching and running with a force 4 wind with ability to beach-land in high surf. 10 knots under sale, 6 knots under oars. These craft werecapable of river navigation and could have made numerous trips over a season during bringing in reinforcements or more migrants once an area was secured. Dated to about 620-25 in the reign of King Raewald of the East Angles.
Other grave goods point to wealthy warrior aristocracy and dominant warrior culture (weapons and armour, pagan warrior talismans).
Heinrich Harke of Reading University
Examining 1660 male burials 400-700AD noted the difference between Romano-Celtic burials and Anglo-Saxon. There was height difference of approx 2” noted in the archaeology between the native Britons and immigrant Anglo-Saxons with weapons being found amongst the taller males. The weapons burials are thought to note the dominance of the Anglo-Saxons “who ruled the land by the sword”. The weapons were often of high quality but not always limited to male warriors. In a few cases young males were interned with weapons as well. In one noted case a 12 month old male child was buried with a rather opulent sword,… speaking more to a terrible parental grief than to a show of dominance.
Caroline Alexander – Lost Gold of the Dark Ages, 2011
Staffordshire Hoard, discovered in 2009. An excellent reference book covering the new finds but also reviewing much that is already known. Alexander notes that towards the end of the Roman period male and female dress near the village West Haslerton, coastal Yorkshire, was a blend of British and Anglian, further suggesting that foederati were intermingling before the main migration began. Retired soldiers likely settled amongst the Britons, adopting their language and culture but having an impact on fashion.
The new find itself is heavily tilted towards weapons and the accoutrements of war, speaking to a warrior culture migration into Britain. It also has numerous religious finds from pagan Anglo-Saxon times up to the return of Christianity. Of particular note was a cross with its arms bent inwards, thought to “disarm” its power.
Stenton – Anglos-Saxon Britain, 1946
Collingwood and Myers – Roman Britain and The English Settlements, 1936
Note that the Celtic Britons tended to largely favour the lighter soils of midland Britain and avoided the heavier soils of the lowland river valleys and coastal regions. This left an opening for the initial migrants from across the North Sea who were comfortable with these areas as they were similar to the river mouth regions and coastal areas of Denmark and northern Germany.
Tierney and Painter – Western Europe in the Middkles Ages, 300-1475, 1970
Note that the initial German migration as Roman power in Britain waned may have seen the locals and new comers living in peace. The Anglo-Saxons would have penetrated the rivers with newcomers occupying the low river valleys and the Britons the higher ground. However, once the Germanic population grew conflict would have arisen and led to Anglo-Saxon expansion of their power. This theory, combined with the Britons seeking aid from mercenaries paints a good scenario for relative quiet between 400/07 and 446/49 followed by sudden eruption of fighting in Kent, Essex and East Anglia and the spread of Saxon power across England.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________
There are others and these are by no means definitive but the general theme is quite constant (if sometimes contradictory). Its my view that the Anglo-Saxon arrival was part invasion, part take-over but I'll deal more with that in the deeper exploration of the topic.
Some good stuff here .

Concerning some of the sites and info:

Mucking: It may have been in continuous use from the Neolithic right through to the AS period.

Prittlewell: The DNA of the king, cannot be determined. In the absence of other info, we have to assume he was local.

Sutton Hoo: The longboat did not have sails. Longships with sails are much later. Some rowboats of this period could do 100 miles in one day. However, that means 50 radius if they want to get home the next day. 25 miles of that 50 would be crossing the Channel. Staying on enemy soil would have been very dangerous. We know that the Britons were dangerous cavalry during this period, as shown by the successful capture of Brittany.

Pattern Welded Swords and other blades: In Britain, these were first manufactured by the Britons, not by the invading Germanic tribes. British industrial strength lay in the mining of metals in the West, and the metalsmiths in the East.

The Staffordshire Horde dates to the 7th century or later, at least after the conversion to Christianity. By this time, 'England' was mainly surrounded by Germanic states, and continually at war with Brittania, hence the dyke. Almost all trade and culture exchanges would have been with Germanics. Germanic Foederati would also have played a part in the cultural shift.

My current and aproximate timeline for the slow change:
100-60BC: Atrebates and Belgae tribes come to Britain.
60-50BC: GJC's conquest of Gaul sees British trade change from Gaul to the Germanics.
50BC-50AD: Trade with Rome increases. The Isle of Thanets importance increases as a place where Gallic and Germanic traders can meet in safety.
50-410AD: Rome conquers Britain. Towards the end of its rule many of the Foederati are Germanic.
356AD: Saxons mentioned for the first time by Julian the Apostate. They are pirates and warlords and allies of a rival emperor of Gaul.
410-450AD: Rome leaves. Cities and their markets slowly fade as the commoners no longer need to trade to get coin for taxes.
450-500AD: Climate change sees an increase of rains by 10% and tempertures drop by two degrees. 'English' agriculture fails, society implodes, and c12000 of the richest leave to found a new colony now called Brittany. The 'Celtic' areas, which rely on trade with metals, and semi nomadic herding/rearing sheep are relatively uneffected by the climate shift. People with skills to replace those that left with the rich primarily come from Germanic areas.
500-600AD: English trade with the continent increases. Brittania's trade with the Med collapses with the Plague of Justinian c540AD. England becomes fully Germanic.
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  #47  
Old 20 Jan 13, 11:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle
...Mucking: It may have been in continuous use from the Neolithic right through to the AS period...
This does not change the fact that the site has "Anglo-Saxon" artefacts dating from the period 400-700.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle
Prittlewell: The DNA of the king, cannot be determined. In the absence of other info, we have to assume he was local....
No we don't. We have to go what the artefact evidence tells us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle
Sutton Hoo: The longboat did not have sails. Longships with sails are much later. Some rowboats of this period could do 100 miles in one day. However, that means 50 radius if they want to get home the next day. 25 miles of that 50 would be crossing the Channel. Staying on enemy soil would have been very dangerous....
Yes, they had sails. We have to go with the evidence of the people on the ground. At 10 knots (not capable under oars) for roughly 12 hours a ship could make about 100 miles, thus crossing the north Sea from the Elbe River in about three days. There is no talk of crossing aback and forth in 25 or 50 miles journeys by convoys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle
...We know that the Britons were dangerous cavalry during this period, as shown by the successful capture of Brittany...,
Who in the south and east was going to pay for this. Where were the war horses coming from. Horse of the day (except specially bread warhorses) stood only about 10 hands high, or about the size of a Shetland pony. A cavalry force, post Roman, would have lasted only as long as the horses they were mounted on. The economic collapse is marked and very real as was the withdrawal of Roman troops c. 407-9. Where was this cavalry coming from 20, 30, 40 years later. The evidence at the forts shows a complete pull out of Roman forces. What local forces might have remained may have included some mounted troops but Sarmatians they were not. By 450 even these remnants are likely to have been no longer economically viable and the series of Saxon victories 450-500 does not speak to British cavalry having any impact. Even less so in the 6th C. Further north and east some cavalry may have remained until the economy there collapsed in the late 5th and into the 6th C, however, the complete collapse of British resistance outside of Wales and Cornwall by the end of the 6th C does not lend credence to a cavalry force being present.

As for Brittany, Maximus was settling his soldiers in Amorica when he moved to Gaul and the area was already Celtic. This continued with each of the usurpers in the last century of the western Roman Empire. There were far more "Roman" and auxiliary forces in northern Gaul which is why the Franks took the time they did to cross the Somme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle
...Pattern Welded Swords and other blades: In Britain, these were first manufactured by the Britons, not by the invading Germanic tribes. British industrial strength lay in the mining of metals in the West, and the metalsmiths in the East....
Pattern welded swords were not the monopoly of Britons at the time. I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle
...The Staffordshire Horde dates to the 7th century or later, at least after the conversion to Christianity. By this time, 'England' was mainly surrounded by Germanic states, and continually at war with Brittania, hence the dyke. Almost all trade and culture exchanges would have been with Germanics. Germanic Foederati would also have played a part in the cultural shift....
Never said it wasn't but there is evidence that many of the Christian artefacts were 'despoiled' by the pagan newcomers. The region's history shows there was more than just a cultural shift, even if in some areas there would have been a surrender by the Roman-Celts to their new masters. The complete collapse of Christianity in "English" controlled areas does not speak to a simple change of management.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle
My current and aproximate timeline for the slow change:.. <snip>
All very interesting but it ignores the fact that British town and cities declined long before the Roman departure to be replaced by the Villa system and change in remaining town "use" (building materials and use). The Vandals in Africa (very effective pirates) shut down Mediterranean trade before/concurrent to the plague. It ignores the fact that the Saxons arrived in an area that was significantly more influenced by Romanisation and thus more badly hit by the economic collapse caused by pull out, the halt in trade, the decline of the towns/cities and the collapse of mass produced pottery (just one important example). Reverse migration to Amorica had been going on since Maximus first settled some of his troops there earlier in the 4th C. That there was an increase of refugee traffic in the late 5th and throughout the 6th C is not surprising.

Cheers.
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  #48  
Old 21 Jan 13, 06:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
This does not change the fact that the site has "Anglo-Saxon" artefacts dating from the period 400-700.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
No we don't. We have to go what the artefact evidence tells us.
Once Rome had fallen, most of the Continent facing 'England' was Germanic. Trade was out of the question with 'Scotland' and 'Wales', so that means grave goods will be the best that can be acquired through trade. That means mainly Germanic goods, albeit from many Germanic areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
Yes, they had sails. We have to go with the evidence of the people on the ground. At 10 knots (not capable under oars) for roughly 12 hours a ship could make about 100 miles, thus crossing the north Sea from the Elbe River in about three days. There is no talk of crossing aback and forth in 25 or 50 miles journeys by convoys.

I'll stand by this post here until I read evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
Who in the south and east was going to pay for this. Where were the war horses coming from. Horse of the day (except specially bread warhorses) stood only about 10 hands high, or about the size of a Shetland pony. A cavalry force, post Roman, would have lasted only as long as the horses they were mounted on. The economic collapse is marked and very real as was the withdrawal of Roman troops c. 407-9. Where was this cavalry coming from 20, 30, 40 years later. The evidence at the forts shows a complete pull out of Roman forces. What local forces might have remained may have included some mounted troops but Sarmatians they were not. By 450 even these remnants are likely to have been no longer economically viable and the series of Saxon victories 450-500 does not speak to British cavalry having any impact. Even less so in the 6th C. Further north and east some cavalry may have remained until the economy there collapsed in the late 5th and into the 6th C, however, the complete collapse of British resistance outside of Wales and Cornwall by the end of the 6th C does not lend credence to a cavalry force being present.
And yet they captured Brittany, with cavalry as their prime weapon.
As for fighting style Anereins tale of the Gododdin reveals the British using cavalry, but mainly as transport and skirmish tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
As for Brittany, Maximus was settling his soldiers in Amorica when he moved to Gaul and the area was already Celtic. This continued with each of the usurpers in the last century of the western Roman Empire. There were far more "Roman" and auxiliary forces in northern Gaul which is why the Franks took the time they did to cross the Somme.
The Bretons had just arrived, and were able to take on a far more organised and lethal force in the Franks than a few warlords and pirates. It is more than odd that Britons can cope with enemy armies than a few hundred raiders (at most).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
Pattern welded swords were not the monopoly of Britons at the time.
That is true. Germans were not making them though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
Never said it wasn't but there is evidence that many of the Christian artefacts were 'despoiled' by the pagan newcomers. The region's history shows there was more than just a cultural shift, even if in some areas there would have been a surrender by the Roman-Celts to their new masters. The complete collapse of Christianity in "English" controlled areas does not speak to a simple change of management.
If Chritianity was confined to the towns and they fell, so goes organised Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
All very interesting but it ignores the fact that British town and cities declined long before the Roman departure to be replaced by the Villa system and change in remaining town "use" (building materials and use). The Vandals in Africa (very effective pirates) shut down Mediterranean trade before/concurrent to the plague. It ignores the fact that the Saxons arrived in an area that was significantly more influenced by Romanisation and thus more badly hit by the economic collapse caused by pull out, the halt in trade, the decline of the towns/cities and the collapse of mass produced pottery (just one important example). Reverse migration to Amorica had been going on since Maximus first settled some of his troops there earlier in the 4th C. That there was an increase of refugee traffic in the late 5th and throughout the 6th C is not surprising.

Cheers.
The fact that people migrated is not a problem. Calling them refugees when none of the literature mentions this fact is wrong, and out of date. Gildas would have mentioned refugees, and so would have the Gallic Chronicle if this was happening on a massive scale.

No villa has been known to be damaged by raiders, something that you would have expected from looters.

If Britain had succumb to the power of the Saxons by 440AD, that gives the Saxons 30 years to come over in sufficient numbers to take over the whole country. If they had done this, they should have left a visible trail in the archaeological record. We also would have had more mass graves than can be counted on one hand.

Further, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle cannot be trusted before 600AD or so, when written records began. If Britain had succumbed to the power of the Saxons in 440AD, why mention Aelle coming in 477AD. He lands on the south coast near Selsey and makes his way to Pevensey along the south coast, say 50 miles or so. It takes him c25 years to do so. The Saxon called Port gives his name to Portsmouth, it is said, although we know it the Romans gave Portsmouth its name. Cerdic and his son Cynric come to England to found Wessex. Seems odd they have British names?

I realise that my theory is very boring, with almost a complete absence of major battles. It may also be wrong. What I do know is that the official version has far too many holes, and about as believable as most Arthurian tales.
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Old 21 Jan 13, 07:21
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It is also possible the people in the areas settled when the Saxons first came over already spoke a Germanic dialect.
Possibly some did.

But we do not have sharply defined "languages" at this stage.

I believe you are ignoring the large influence that the Danish incursions had upon the development of "Anglo-Saxon" and the English Language.

Saxon and Dane are indistinguishable in their DNA.

A very interesting theory which I find attractive is that with the "viking" languages and saxon so similar but still different that the development of common method of communication resulted in the dropping of the convoluted grammar we see in Germanic (and Latin Languages) and the importance of the position of the nominative, accusative and verb etc in the sentence.
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Old 21 Jan 13, 09:48
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Quote:
100-60BC: Atrebates and Belgae tribes come to Britain.
I think it is unclear whether Belgae were Gallic or Germanic or whether this distinction is a real one or just the fact that the Tribes on the opposite side of the Rhine were described as the Romans as Germans


http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk...itishgene.html

I believe there were other studies which suggested that the vast majority of white "anglo-saxons" are descended from the original hunter\gathers from present day Spain and south of France who re-inhabited Britain as the last Ice Age retreated.

The general genetic map of the Y chromosome (and I suspect the female line would be even more heavily weighted to genes of the oldest inhabitants) is as follows:


Haplo R1(b)


Haplo "I"


Haplo R1(a)

Generally speaking in terms of today's labels - R1(b) is Celt, R1(a) is Slav and I is the oldest and "Teuton".

I think this suggests that although the Saxon and Danish invasions added significant amounts of "Germanic" genes, this was mostly in the South and East and nowhere is it the main contribution.

All other invaders contributed negligible amounts to the genetic mix.
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  #51  
Old 21 Jan 13, 17:33
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Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
...I'll stand by this post here until I read evidence to the contrary. ...
As you like but I have given you sources that clearly state the long boats were square sailed, large enough to "reach and run with the wind". As noted these long boats were long enough and wide enough to permit high surf beach-landings as well shallow draft enough (2 feet) to penetrate rivers. In order to attain distances of 160 km one would need more than just oars, much slower and requiring the crew to rest at regualar intervals. Since Saxons raided from the Orkneys to Spain, they had the ships to cover the distances required.
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Old 21 Jan 13, 21:46
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Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post
At the time when Beowulf was written (ca. 8th century) Germanic languages were still mutually intelligible. I imagine this would have made the countries where they were spoken more like a community.

Shakespeare's Hamlet was also set in Denmark. Elsinore is called Helsingør by the Danes.
I always thought it was a lot earlier than 8th century, or a similar one from when germany and scandinavia were first settled.
Before the roman empire.
I could and probably am wrong, but a voice in my memory keeps telling me.
I am sure its in my old notes somewhere, its gonna drive me mad now untill i can get into my loft

... .... .. -
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Old 21 Jan 13, 23:48
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It was written down in the 8th C but it stems from an oral tradition that is much older. What is not known is how old.
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Old 22 Jan 13, 00:16
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all this stuff is interesting while at the same time seeming somewhat fictional.

no dog in this hunt but it sounds reasonable to me that seafarers from northern Germany could have settled in southeast England with little effort over a questionable period of time and the rest is lost to history..its not that far between the two locales.

its not unlike wondering where any other other ethnic grouping came from and how they got there... all you really have is a genetic stew to dissassemble ingredient by ingredient, and that leads to as many questions as it does answers.

one thing for sure is that island some of you call home is a crossroad where many competing interests left their marks.


carry on.
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Old 22 Jan 13, 03:34
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Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The jury is out on the AS invasion.

Here's my current opinion for what its worth

The 'Anglo-Saxon invasion' started prior to the Romans, since we know that two Germanic tribes, the Belgae and Atrebates, had arrived in Britain prior to GJC failed attempts to conqueror the lands. However, GJS impact was noticable, with British trade changing from the south coast to France, to the SE towards the low countries. Therefore, even before Claudius's successful invasion, we have an influx of some Germanic peoples and greater trade with those peoples.

After Romes occupation, Britain was divided into provinces. Britannia Prima consisted of those areas that were friendly to the Med before Rome came, ie the rich areas of Cornwall and Wales. The others eventually became what we know as Anglo-Saxon England. The South Eastern province was called Maxima Caesariensis. It was here where the Saxon Shore Forts were based. The commander of these forts was called The Count of The Saxon Shore.



http://www.roman-britain.org/history/province.htm

Similar ranks were created across the Channel to deal with the Saxon pirates.



These were named after the areas they were defending. It would appear odd that the British based counts name would be based on the enemy, and not the area they were protecting.

Further similariities appear between the Roman provinces and the following Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. The Northumbrian area is similar to Britannia Secunda, the Anglian area is similar to Flavia Caesariensis, and the Saxon area to Maxima Caesariensis.



Once Rome had left c410AD, apparantly Saxons had come in such numbers that they were able the besiege every British town and city within 2 generations, aka the Groans of the Britains c450AD. Given that most Saxon naval craft were little more than glorified canoes at the time, the Germanic ability to transport and feed 100's of thousands is extremely unlikely. Further we know that Britons were completely capable with dealing with German tribes. Those that went to form Brittany were able to take the land, and then beat the far more dangerous and organised Franks (who gave France its name).

However, people of England speak English, not Brythonic, and that does mean something major occurred. Some believe there was a type of ethnic cleansing, but if so, this would be seen in both the archaeological and the DNA record of the people. It does not. The other option is that only the top layer was taken over, and of those of lesser social status forced to change. This certainly did not happen with the Visgoths in Spain, the Franks in France, the Ostrogoths in Italy, nor the Vandals in N Africa. Further, when the English king, Edward 1, conquered Wales, the locals were still speaking Welsh three centuries later.

Western Britain, ie Britannia Prima, continued to trade happily with the Med until c540AD when plague halted said enterprise. That was when 'Celtic' Britain collapsed, and not due to their 'Saxon' neighbours. The proto-English had been trading around the North Sea, with their German partners for centuries, and proto-English would have been the common tongue to trade with. With Rome gone knowing the Germanic tongue would have been a necessity for many.

Robin Flemming in Britain After Rome adds a further reason why the 'Saxons' came. Once Rome had gone, so went many skilled craftsmen. Many of their replacements would have come from Germanic areas, and the goods and culture of these people further effected English culture. We have invaders who are Tinkers and Tailors rather than Soldiers and Sailors. Further, skilled workers tend to be richer than unskilled labourers, and thus these immigrants gained status and dominance.

What we have is a merging of culture and ideas, as well as an influx of people. However, this did not happen relatively suddenly in two centuries, but far more slowly over six to seven. I would also say that there is a reason for more than coincindental similarities between the 4 Roman provinces and the 4 Celt and Anglo-Saxon kingdoms that followed.

Certainly very many Germanics came to Britain over the centuries, just not in the way that we are usually taught.

That's my 2 cents worth.
My county of birth is Sussex (Brighthelmstone) and as far as I have found out which is rather limited come from Anglo Saxon heritage on my Fathers side.My main object in pursuing this thread being like so many school children of my era could not go back much further than the Battle of Hastings regarding local history. I cannot join in because my Knowledge regarding your topic is practically zero,but I will continue following your information out of sheer interest. lcm1
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  #56  
Old 22 Jan 13, 05:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
As you like but I have given you sources that clearly state the long boats were square sailed, large enough to "reach and run with the wind". As noted these long boats were long enough and wide enough to permit high surf beach-landings as well shallow draft enough (2 feet) to penetrate rivers. In order to attain distances of 160 km one would need more than just oars, much slower and requiring the crew to rest at regualar intervals. Since Saxons raided from the Orkneys to Spain, they had the ships to cover the distances required.
Romans writers said the Saxon ships were rowed. The Sutton Hoo ship had no sails. The Saxons are not known to have raided the Orkneys, that was the Vikings. Sailed longships were around the 8th century, not the 5th.

No one is denying German tribes raided Britain. They certainly did so during the Roman occupation, and there is no reason to think they would stop after they had gone.

However, it may be that 'England' was already conquered by the Saxons by 429AD. One of two battles that we can be sure that happened in the C5th, was the 'Alleluia' battle between Christian Britons and an alliance of Picts and Anglo-Saxons. The battle takes place on border of Britatania Prima and what was Flavia Caesariensis ie that which become Mercia. This battle is corrobarated by more than one source in living memory (Constantius of Lyon and Prosper of Aquitaine are two), and we even have a location for that battle (here point A).
Quote:
By now the savage host of the enemy was close at hand and Germanus rapidly circulated an order that all should repeat in unison the call he would give as a battle-cry. Then, while the enemy were still secure in their belief that their approach was unexpected, the bishops three times chanted the Alleluia. All, as one man, repeated it and the shout they raised rang through the air and echoed many times in the confined space between the mountains. The enemy were panic-stricken, thinking that the surrounding rocks and the very sky itself were falling on them. Such was their terror that no effort of their feet seemed enough to save them. They fled in every direction, throwing away their weapons and thankful if they could at least save their skins. Many threw themselves into a river which they had just crossed with ease, and were drowned in it. Thus the British army looked on at its revenge without striking a blow, idle spectators of the victory they achieved. The booty strewn everywhere was collected; the pious soldiery obtained the spoils of a victory from heaven. The bishops were elated at the rout of the enemy without bloodshed and a victory gained by faith and not by force.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Heathe...y/message/4181

The fact remains that 'Saxons' are apparantly able to march from the SE, join up with their Pictish allies in the North, and then march onto Wales without incident, until the battle proper. A more logical position would be that these 'Saxons' were from Northumberland, ie former Brittania Secunda, and had joined with their neighbours to raid the rich province of Brittania Prima.

I would suggest that all the evidence points to 'Saxons' already being in Britain before their official arrival.
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  #57  
Old 22 Jan 13, 11:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Romans writers said the Saxon ships were rowed. The Sutton Hoo ship had no sails. The Saxons are not known to have raided the Orkneys, that was the Vikings. Sailed longships were around the 8th century, not the 5th....
No Nick. I am not talking about the Norse in the 9th C. I am talking about Angles, Saxons and Jutes in the 5th, 6th and 7thC.The sources I have given you are clear about the Saxons raided from the Orkney's to Spain. The Sutton Hoo ship and other finds at the site did have sails. These ships were as I have descibed. Its in the sources provided.

Accept them or not.

I'll follow up on the rest when the main piece I am working on is finished. One thing is certain, britain was not overrun by 429AD, that is a certainty.
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Old 22 Jan 13, 19:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
No Nick. I am not talking about the Norse in the 9th C. I am talking about Angles, Saxons and Jutes in the 5th, 6th and 7thC.The sources I have given you are clear about the Saxons raided from the Orkney's to Spain. The Sutton Hoo ship and other finds at the site did have sails. These ships were as I have descibed. Its in the sources provided.

Accept them or not.

I'll follow up on the rest when the main piece I am working on is finished. One thing is certain, britain was not overrun by 429AD, that is a certainty.
A half sized replica of the Sutton Hoo ship was able to take a modest sail.

The main problem with Anglo-Saxon naval archaeology is three fold. First is that no longship of the period has been found with a mast, nor a fitting for one. The Romans c390AD said the AS ships were rowed. Then, it is assumed the Saxons came from the continent.

Let's take two confirmed dates (as far as any in this period can be). We have St Germanus at the Alleluia battle in 429AD. He is on the border of Brittania Prima facing Picts and Saxons. Except the Saxons may have actually been Irish pirates and slavers. Then we have the Chronica Gallica which says Britain is suppressed by the Saxons in c440AD. In that period, it is the Irish that is making inroads into mainland Britain. The fact that Cunedda and the Votadini turn up shortly after this time to take back Wales is surely no coincidence. Further, since this chronicle is via the south of France, we know that they are talking about their trading partners, ie the metal producing areas of Wales and Cornwall.

The problem with the name Britain in the literature is that it can refer to both Britain and Brittania Prima. The problem with the name Saxon is that it can refer to the heathen/pagan people of England, mercenaries of a rival Caesar or even pirates operating along the Channel and Irish seas. That is even before the official invasion of the Saxons et al c450AD. Then it gets complicated.
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Old 23 Jan 13, 18:08
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Originally Posted by Scupio View Post
I think it is unclear whether Belgae were Gallic or Germanic or whether this distinction is a real one or just the fact that the Tribes on the opposite side of the Rhine were described as the Romans as Germans


http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk...itishgene.html

I believe there were other studies which suggested that the vast majority of white "anglo-saxons" are descended from the original hunter\gathers from present day Spain and south of France who re-inhabited Britain as the last Ice Age retreated.

The general genetic map of the Y chromosome (and I suspect the female line would be even more heavily weighted to genes of the oldest inhabitants) is as follows:


Haplo R1(b)


Haplo "I"


Haplo R1(a)

Generally speaking in terms of today's labels - R1(b) is Celt, R1(a) is Slav and I is the oldest and "Teuton".

I think this suggests that although the Saxon and Danish invasions added significant amounts of "Germanic" genes, this was mostly in the South and East and nowhere is it the main contribution.

All other invaders contributed negligible amounts to the genetic mix.
Scupio,

I like the maps, indeed I am a R1b myself! The problem is these dna markers were taken in the last few years. It can't reflect what was there 1000 or so years ago. You also have to filter out the people that have moved in in the recent past. There are also certain "markers" that reflect certain origins. One such named Wodin would indicate German ancestry.

Pruitt
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Old 24 Jan 13, 09:54
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Scupio,

I like the maps, indeed I am a R1b myself! The problem is these dna markers were taken in the last few years. It can't reflect what was there 1000 or so years ago. You also have to filter out the people that have moved in in the recent past. There are also certain "markers" that reflect certain origins. One such named Wodin would indicate German ancestry.

Pruitt
Names as markers is certainly an indication. Relevant to this time period are the 'Jutes' Cerdic and Cynric. They founded Wessex, and Alfred the Great counted these amongst his ancestors. The problem is that these are British names, and thus these characters are far more likely to come from Britannia Prima than from Denmark.

Cerdic was also called Dux Gewissorum, odd that he should have a Roman title? Bede says that the West Saxons were originally called the Gewissans. That means they were locals, with Cerdic of House Gewissan as their Dux. Although Gewissan is an old German word, it comes directly from the Greek Syneidesis, via Latin Conscientia, meaning awareness. I more than suspect no Germanic warlord would consider that a suitable name for his house, unless it had been Romanized while acting as Foederati.
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