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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East

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The Middle East Asia Minor, the Arab Mahgreb, and the Persian Gulf to include tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbors, Terrorist organizations and Iran.

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  #31  
Old 21 Jan 13, 12:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
I honestly have no idea what you're saying. It might be the language barrier but I find it highly unlikely.

If I picked some of your things up, such as "90 of the lands in Israel being leased" then that is simply and awfully wrong.


As far as British documentation that is neither correct or relevant.
I answered your bolded point.

The second point is extremely relevant. Israel is the 'Mandate holder' from the UN, which acquired the league of Nations mandates.
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  #32  
Old 21 Jan 13, 13:58
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That's absurd. This *might* be true regarding public land, but not all lands.

As for your 2nd point, Israel is not "the mandate" holder, it's a sovereign state.
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  #33  
Old 21 Jan 13, 14:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
That's absurd. This *might* be true regarding public land, but not all lands.

As for your 2nd point, Israel is not "the mandate" holder, it's a sovereign state.
I don't know Israel but I know something of this from Singapore and Hong Kong. In Singapore the government owns virtually all the land and it is put to private use by means of very long term leases (e.g. 100 years). So a firm would lease the land from the government, build an appartment building or office tower, and operate it. Periodically the lease comes up for renewal and there is a tendency not to invest in maintenance toward the end of the lease but otherwise there is not much difference with private ownership.

The other similar example is US federal lands. If you look at America in terms of percentage of land owned by the federal government it's extremely high, especially in wester states, but this is very misleading because most of that land is desolate or, at best, useful for ranching or mining only. Few people are directly affected by this.

In both cases, ownership and use rights are very clearly defined.

The botom line: this is a red herring.
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  #34  
Old 21 Jan 13, 14:33
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If you don't Believe the Jewish Virtual Library

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
That's absurd. This *might* be true regarding public land, but not all lands.

As for your 2nd point, Israel is not "the mandate" holder, it's a sovereign state.
then I would suggest you produce an alturnative source.

I sat on a board when I was a civil servant , Briefly, & heard reufgee claims fform Palestinians & Syrians. There 'Version' is an eerie mirror image of a lot of right wing Israeli positions.

You really are 'one separated but close enough people'. Israelis & Palestinians are so eerily similar in outlooks.

The Times recently carried this unusual report on an Israeli Jew (Tsvi Misinai, a retired computer expert) who's hoping to prove that Palestinians are descended from Jews. Apparently, he thinks that proving this will help to stop the bloodshed. His idea is that modern Jews are descended from emigration in the first few centuries of the Christian era. The Jews who stayed put in Palestine converted to Islam, and became Palestinian Arabs. There's hope that genetic tests might be able to prove this.



http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/...-jews-and.html

There is no connection what so ever, in any way shape or form between today's Palestinians- which are overwhelmingly descendants of North Africans, Syrians, Iraqi and Bedouins from the Arabian desert and the Philistines which are descendants of people from the Mediterranean islands and have vanished from history around the 5-6 centuries.
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Has, been,I regret to say, disproved by any reputable DNA study. There has been some Arab input ( no surprise), but the Palestinian stock is basically- converted from Judaicism.

In fact , Israelis are very similar to the 'Plantation Scots'.
Who now realise that they can Share the Island of Ireland.
Genetically, Palestinians sit right between the Shepardi & the Askenazi
Read the data.

Just a little farther behind on the curve..
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  #35  
Old 21 Jan 13, 16:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
I woudl suggest that you review the latest reports on the close DNA similarities. The Jewish & Palestinian populations are more closely related to each other than to any other populations on earth.

You are all Canannites, it appears.
I guess you red "new israelians historians".
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  #36  
Old 21 Jan 13, 16:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
I just love this methodology.

Firstly, even if our DNA closely resembles, that has nothing to do with the Canaanites now does it?
Secondly, I'd assume we resemble each other, Judaism originated from Mesopotamia.

Lastly, it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
I guess you don't like some historians in Israel.

Also you maybe could go in Greece, they still don't have any plan and land registry.
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  #37  
Old 21 Jan 13, 17:45
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As a Modern civilised, Soveriegn State,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
That's absurd. This *might* be true regarding public land, but not all lands.

As for your 2nd point, Israel is not "the mandate" holder, it's a sovereign state.
Israel is expected to take up the burden of the Mandates, for the same reason that the British were required to provide the Jewish Homeland in the Balfour declarations.

Peel pointed this out as far back as 1937. His untimely death removed a very farsighted statesman from the 'Palestine Mandate'.

You notice that ,IMHO,Isreal has a right to retain the Watershed of the Golan Heights. Its the price Syria pays for the expulsion of the Jews from both Syria- and Lebanon - which they triggered.

If it helps any,I got kicked off a 'left leaning ' discussion site for advocating this..
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Old 21 Jan 13, 18:02
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
Israel is expected to take up the burden of the Mandates, for the same reason that the British were required to provide the Jewish Homeland in the Balfour declarations.
I think you are overlooking the intervening wars which change the "burden" of the mandate entirely. The British did not hand the West Bank to the Palestinians but to the Jordanians who used it to launch wars against Israel with the enthusiastic support of the Palestinians. Because the Arabs lost and Israel won, and because Israel has no reason to expect peace, and because control of this land is vital to it's security, and because the Palestinians continue to seek the destruction of Israel, there is absolutely no reason why Israel should feel bound by the original mandate.
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  #39  
Old 21 Jan 13, 18:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipser View Post
I think you are overlooking the intervening wars which change the "burden" of the mandate entirely. The British did not hand the West Bank to the Palestinians but to the Jordanians who used it to launch wars against Israel with the enthusiastic support of the Palestinians. Because the Arabs lost and Israel won, and because Israel has no reason to expect peace, and because control of this land is vital to it's security, and because the Palestinians continue to seek the destruction of Israel, there is absolutely no reason why Israel should feel bound by the original mandate.
Nto exactly.
Jordan annexed the West Bank. 1950.

Out of Couriosity, what part of the Cantonment plan do you feel would not work?

The articles plan ,IMHO, makes as much, or as LITTLE, sense as the 'All Jews back to Europe' Hezbollah/ Hamas plan.

Mirror image extremism.

Isreal costs the Average American family 912.00 a year in after tax dollars. You should at least get your money's worth...
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  #40  
Old 21 Jan 13, 18:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
That's absurd. This *might* be true regarding public land, but not all lands.

As for your 2nd point, Israel is not "the mandate" holder, it's a sovereign state.
Golani,I have the uneasy feeling that you haven't read Peel's Partition report.
Here it is.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ory/peel1.html
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Old 21 Jan 13, 18:45
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
Nto exactly. Jordan annexed the West Bank. 1950.
See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordani...East_Jerusalem

Quote:
In March 1948, the British Cabinet had agreed that the civil and military authorities in Palestine should make no effort to oppose the setting up of a Jewish State or a move into Palestine from Transjordan.[14]
The United States, together with the United Kingdom favored the annexation by Transjordan. The UK preferred to permit King Abdullah to annex the territory at the earliest date, while the United States preferred to wait until after the conclusion of the Palestine Conciliation Commission brokered negotiations.[15] Jordan formally annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem on April 24, 1950, giving all residents automatic Jordanian citizenship. West Bank residents had already received the right to claim Jordanian citizenship in December 1949.
In other words, Israel is not annexing Palestine but a chunk of Jordan captured in war.

Quote:
Out of Couriosity, what part of the Cantonment plan do you feel would not work? The posted plan ,IMHO, makes as much, or as LITTLE, sense as the 'All Jews back to Europe' Hezbollah/ Hamas plan. Mirror image extremism.
More precisely, it is the mirror of the unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state. It does not propose to expel the Arabs, only to deny them citizenship.
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  #42  
Old 21 Jan 13, 19:20
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sorry, but its not how the world works

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Originally Posted by ipser View Post
See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordani...East_Jerusalem



In other words, Israel is not annexing Palestine but a chunk of Jordan captured in war.


More precisely, it is the mirror of the unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state. It does not propose to expel the Arabs, only to deny them citizenship.
I reaise that you Jewish fellows have had cause to 'harden'- the reality is that this plan is Jews who follow the Torah forcing Jews that follow another faith to get out or be starved out.

Inthe 1830's, this movement
http://history1800s.about.com/od/imm...wnothing01.htm

Wanted to EVICT all American Catholics, from the USA, forever..
Many Americans, of course, were appalled by the Know-Nothings. Abraham Lincoln expressed his own disgust with the political party in a letter written in 1855.

Lincoln noted that if the Know-Nothings ever took power, the Declaration of Independence would have to be amended to say that all men are created equal "except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." Lincoln went on to say he would rather emigrate to Russia, where despotism is out in the open, then live in such an America
Today, that is barbarism.
If you go to Stormfront .org, there is an active discussion on deporting all American Jews 'Out'. On the next freighters.Your article proposes the SAME thing. Don't sugar coat it.

A ribbon Palestinian state from the Golan to the Negev along the lower Jordan, solves a lot of issues.

How would you feel if Canada & the USA decided to 'cleanse North America'- of Jews? Same injustice.
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  #43  
Old 21 Jan 13, 19:35
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I reaise that you Jewish fellows have had cause to 'harden'- the reality is that this plan is Jews who follow the Torah forcing Jews that follow another faith to get out or be starved out.

Inthe 1830's, this movement
http://history1800s.about.com/od/imm...wnothing01.htm

Wanted to EVICT all American Catholics, from the USA, forever..
Many Americans, of course, were appalled by the Know-Nothings. Abraham Lincoln expressed his own disgust with the political party in a letter written in 1855.

Lincoln noted that if the Know-Nothings ever took power, the Declaration of Independence would have to be amended to say that all men are created equal "except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." Lincoln went on to say he would rather emigrate to Russia, where despotism is out in the open, then live in such an America
Today, that is barbarism.
If you go to Stormfront .org, there is an active discussion on deporting all American Jews 'Out'. On the next freighters.Your article proposes the SAME thing. Don't sugar coat it....How would you feel if Canada & the USA decided to 'cleanse North America'- of Jews? Same injustice.
Speaking as Catholic American, this is a revealing analogy. The OP does not propose expelling any Israeli citizens, even Arab Palestinians. The worst it proposes is to treat hostile villages differently than peaceful ones. So, no, not the same at all.

Quote:
A ribbon Palestinian state from the Golan to the Negev along the lower Jordan, solves a lot of issues.
A peaceful Palestinain state might. A hostile Palestinian state will create new problems. In particular, it would allow Arab armies to mass in the west bank for an invasion of Israel.

The failure to distinguish between these conditions is the source of much mischief. And given the history of the region it's more than a bit foolish to ignore.
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  #44  
Old 21 Jan 13, 19:47
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there are better precedents

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Originally Posted by ipser View Post
Speaking as Catholic American, this is a revealing analogy. The OP does not propose expelling any Israeli citizens, even Arab Palestinians. The worst it proposes is to treat hostile villages differently than peaceful ones. So, no, not the same at all.


A peaceful Palestinain state might. A hostile Palestinian state will create new problems. In particular, it would allow Arab armies to mass in the west bank for an invasion of Israel.

The failure to distinguish between these conditions is the source of much mischief. And given the history of the region it's more than a bit foolish to ignore.
Sorry- Agree to disagree time. A partition plan that gives Israel the high Ground of the mountains is 'fair'.

I know Palestine Canadians who sojourned in the Persian Gulf States and found it terrifying. The Saudis just considered them as 'converted Jews'.


In 1945 the Soviet Union Drew the line east of the River San- Poles on one side, Ukranians on the other. The horrible ethnic slaughter petered out.

Some peoples just get along- Americans, Canadians, etc. Some need separation for a time- Two States. Right now, it costs the Average American Family 912.00 dollars a YEAR to subsidise Isreal. Or over 50,000.000 Per Family , at Simple interest, over your earning life. Are you getting your money's worth?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/
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Old 22 Jan 13, 02:58
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[...] Because the Arabs lost and Israel won, and because Israel has no reason to expect peace, and because control of this land is vital to it's security, and because the Palestinians continue to seek the destruction of Israel, there is absolutely no reason why Israel should feel bound by the original mandate.
Today we have election in Israel and may the message will be, that the Israeli population is as much guilty as itīs government for the crime the Palestinian have to live with - as they see it.

So, what will you say if Netanjahu with all the right-wing parties will come in power again and the Palestinian start a final offense and overwhelm Israel? I would say then like you: "Because the Israeli lost and Palestine won, and because Palestine has no reason to expect peace and because control of this land is vital to itīs security and because the Israeli continue to seek the destruction of Palestine, there is absolutely no reason why Palestine should feel bound on anything".

Both views are making us run in a circle. We will never reach the destiny!
So, Israel is still having a chance till this evening to accept what the UN like to see.

What a luck that we do not talk about this actual situation in Palestine here in Germany much in these days. The "Friends of Israel", mostly from the right-wing parties we have the term "Nazis" for, did try to start an ideological an anti-Palestine offense but no one is taking them for "full" (clear in the head).
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