Who Killed America?

[sebfrench76]

Jannie,a very evocative description of what you lived then.
I believe that the America some of you are looking after,is the one that most of us in France are dreamin' on...
I also believe that pieces ,traces of this "blessed era" are not far from the corner of your streets.

[Half Pint John]

Originally Posted by Jannie

You really want to go back to the past? Again, I like now. I am 71 and grew up in the times you fantasize about. I lived through all of those changes. Is it worse now? I sincerely do not think so. I just got back from Chicago, I was in the Boston area at Thanksgiving. The cities are quite elegant. The neighborhoods perhaps not so much, but then were they ever really grand and marvelous?

But then I actually remember the Maxwell Street area of Chicago in the mid-50s. The street market, the dirt and grime from all of the smoke. The coal smoke scent in the air. The men all smoked and coughed and spat on the streets, but they wore their fedoras! Oh and talk about great cities—remember the stock yards near any great city? Or the fish markets? The air was tainted for blocks around.

I can remember when men talked about blacks in a particularly bad way. The N word was quite common. I can remember the days when boys carried switch blades and stood on street corners and cleaned their fingernails. I remember a school trip that we made to NYC in the late 50s. The areas we were told to avoid. I remember the Nike bases that surrounded Chicago. The nuclear air raid drills that we practiced in school, huddling under our desks and covering our heads.

What sort of fairyland are you guys dreaming about?

Those stockyards and markets and smoke in the air meant people had good jobs and close to home. In my home town in the Ohio Valley you would take a bath and twenty minutes later have sooty sweat running down your arms.

Then steel moved out, the malls moved in and the town center died. Small towns or big towns the story is much the same. Many city's throughout the industrial north went this way. Textile Mills gone from New England, Steel and cars from the Great Lakes area and the Ohio Valley. Were those better off in the 50s than they are today? I think so.

Single parent family's were very rare and those that were was due to the death of one of the parents. Parents let their children go outside and play without fear because there was less to fear and neighbors were neighbors who looked out for each other including the kids. Teachers and police were respected, we didn't get searched going into school. We had child left behind and we either passed our grade or took it so long until we did.

Stores really closed on Sunday. Now 24/7 BS. People even showed some self discipline and made sure they had what they needed for the week end. For a church going, God fearing nation we no long act that way.

[Selous]

People, it seemed, did have more self-reliance, more good personal qualities of character. Not so much social qualities (racism and so on)Perhaps because times were harder.

[The Exorcist]

For the last time, I am not talking about STUFF.
Material riches are not the point here.


People did more with their hands/feet and less with machines, and so they were in better physical condition.
Yes, the shoes had to be broken in and blisters suffered along the way, and they might break in unexpected ways. However; there was a guy on the corner making a living fixing shoes, and at a very reasonable price. Thus you could have the same pair for 5 years or more, instead of having to chuck the pair of Chinese knock-offs you just got last year to go get more.
Are we done talking about stuff yet?

Originally Posted by Selous

People, it seemed, did have more self-reliance, more good personal qualities of character. Not so much social qualities (racism and so on)Perhaps because times were harder.

Social qualities are tinsel, dressing to cover true intentions.
Someone who uses the "N" word is easy to see through. Someone that does not because he feels social pressure can be just as predjudiced, but you will have a much harder time finding that out.

And yes, thank you, self-reliance was one of the biggies when it came to character. This is no longer the case.
But your earlier comment, about uncomprehending barbarians walking past buildings and bridges that they could not begin to replace... we are not quite there yet.
Where we are now is wandering herds of sheep who simple take it all for granted, and are just as ignorant about how such things were done.
In other words, the step right before the one you mentioned.

[copenhagen]

All I can say is that over here when all those scuzzers were rioting and stealing sneakers in the UK a couple of years back, the following day, people got together and got organised to clean the mess up not sitting around , waiting for others to do it for them. And these people were mostly youngsters. Times have changed but not everything's gone pearshaped...

[slick_miester]

I spent a few months in the 'Stan a while back, and like Cope there I came away more optimistic about our young people. These guys knew what they were in for, but overwhelmingly they stood by each other and went out daily to do a dangerous job. My pessimism, however, has been reinforced by some of the adults and more affluent and educated types: from any angle you care to look, they're a disappointment.

Originally Posted by The Exorcist

For the last time, I am not talking about STUFF.
Material riches are not the point here.


People did more with their hands/feet and less with machines, and so they were in better physical condition. . . . .

I'd be more concerned with how the mere presence of labor-saving technology has failed to result in better use of consequently freed-up intellectual capacity. There are plenty of people around who make use of the technology to save labor, but they're not increasing their productivity because they refuse to recognize how potentially revolutionary some of the new technology really is. The net result is that they're no more productive than in the past -- only they're a whole lot lazier about it.

What might be worse, however, is how despite the capacity that new technologies have for opening up whole new vistas of thought, the only websites growing in popularity are porno and gambling. We have access to more than our grandparents could ever imagine, but we do less in a year than they did in a morning. That's shameful.

[The Exorcist]

Originally Posted by slick_miester

What might be worse, however, is how despite the capacity that new technologies have for opening up whole new vistas of thought, the only websites growing in popularity are porno and gambling. We have access to more than our grandparents could ever imagine, but we do less in a year than they did in a morning. That's shameful.

This piece of absolute brilliance was posted by Rojik, but I can't make the direct link thing work;



Kinda says it all, doesn't it?
Well... at least we are not the only ones that are aware of the problem.

[Half Pint John]

I'd be more concerned with how the mere presence of labor-saving technology has failed to result in better use of consequently freed-up intellectual capacity. There are plenty of people around who make use of the technology to save labor, but they're not increasing their productivity because they refuse to recognize how potentially revolutionary some of the new technology really is. The net result is that they're no more productive than in the past -- only they're a whole lot lazier about it.

True but unfortunately that most likely covers many of us here at ACG as well.

I won't bore everyone with the work savers that my mother did without, but still had time to sit down and talk with her children and husband. We have more time to spend now but how much is quality time?

[Dashy]

I was discussing this with Ogilvy the other day, the degradation of people as a whole.

I came to the conclsuion there was one bi g factor at work

People these days lack faith, I don't mean faith in god, just faith in general. People who believe in something and are willing to sacrifice for that ideal are, as a general rule, better than those who aren't. People these days are willing to sacrifice very little for any cause, when Christchurch crumbled to the ground most NZ'ers were only willing to give $5 or so, donations showed that each New Zealander gave, over 2 years, $100 voluntarily, and very few actually travelled down to help. 2 years on and they haven't even finished off demolitions, people leave the city in droves. Compare this with the 1930 earthquake in Napier, people flocked to help knowing there would be work to do (depression anyone? like our current economic situation is any less grim) in the same time-frame buildings had begun to rise, in 2 years much of the city had been rebuilt (in a marvellous style mind).

Perhaps most saddening (in regards to the Christchurch Earthquake) is the fact when Christchurch gets rebuilt it won't be built in some appealing style, gaudy constructions of glass and steel will be the order of the day.

But back to faith, I'm also talking about faith in higher Ideals, such as freedom and liberty. 70 odd years ago New Zealanders were willing to travel to the other side of the world to fight a foe who could, realistically, never harm her. they left their families to fight for a nation who thanked us once and went on to be communist, we crippled our economy (through the removal of workers and requestion of goods) fighting the Axis and feeding the Marines. The sad thing Is, I don't believe New Zealand could do that today. If Hitler were to arise in Germany today (or if Angela decides a little Anschulss with the rest of Europe is in order) New Zealand would probably send a strongly worded protest and a few hundred volunteers to a UN peacekeeping team. People in New Zealand, in all positions and walks of life, are unwilling to sacrifice their own well-being for others.

[Half Pint John]

Originally Posted by Dashy

I was discussing this with Ogilvy the other day, the degradation of people as a whole.

I came to the conclsuion there was one bi g factor at work

People these days lack faith, I don't mean faith in god, just faith in general. People who believe in something and are willing to sacrifice for that ideal are, as a general rule, better than those who aren't. People these days are willing to sacrifice very little for any cause, when Christchurch crumbled to the ground most NZ'ers were only willing to give $5 or so, donations showed that each New Zealander gave, over 2 years, $100 voluntarily, and very few actually travelled down to help. 2 years on and they haven't even finished off demolitions, people leave the city in droves. Compare this with the 1930 earthquake in Napier, people flocked to help knowing there would be work to do (depression anyone? like our current economic situation is any less grim) in the same time-frame buildings had begun to rise, in 2 years much of the city had been rebuilt (in a marvellous style mind).

Perhaps most saddening (in regards to the Christchurch Earthquake) is the fact when Christchurch gets rebuilt it won't be built in some appealing style, gaudy constructions of glass and steel will be the order of the day.

But back to faith, I'm also talking about faith in higher Ideals, such as freedom and liberty. 70 odd years ago New Zealanders were willing to travel to the other side of the world to fight a foe who could, realistically, never harm her. they left their families to fight for a nation who thanked us once and went on to be communist, we crippled our economy (through the removal of workers and requestion of goods) fighting the Axis and feeding the Marines. The sad thing Is, I don't believe New Zealand could do that today. If Hitler were to arise in Germany today (or if Angela decides a little Anschulss with the rest of Europe is in order) New Zealand would probably send a strongly worded protest and a few hundred volunteers to a UN peacekeeping team. People in New Zealand, in all positions and walks of life, are unwilling to sacrifice their own well-being for others.

It's not faith imo. It's the ME in most of our country's. ME first. The real idea of nation of one people is no longer in mode.

[copenhagen]

Originally Posted by Half Pint John

It's not faith imo. It's the ME in most of our country's. ME first. The real idea of nation of one people is no longer in mode.

There's no I in TEAM but there is a ME.

[slick_miester]

Interesting philosophical stuff here. I's gonna have to break out mah big word book for dis here.

Originally Posted by Half Pint John

I won't bore everyone with the work savers that my mother did without, but still had time to sit down and talk with her children and husband. We have more time to spend now but how much is quality time?

Is it just me, or are human relationships the hardest form of work imaginable?

But think of it: most would people rather watch television than spend quiet time with their families. Now that we have video games and internet, we don't have to really spend time with people. I've seen people at restaurants, couples, spend their entire time with their faces down on their Blackberries or I-phones -- the man on his, the woman on hers. We prefer any gadget over direct human interaction. Why is that?

Originally Posted by Dashy

I was discussing this with Ogilvy the other day, the degradation of people as a whole.

I came to the conclsuion there was one bi g factor at work

People these days lack faith, I don't mean faith in god, just faith in general. People who believe in something and are willing to sacrifice for that ideal are, as a general rule, better than those who aren't.

That's funny, 'cause people who express a willingness to sacrifice scare me far more than any mere criminal. Let us catalog "the faithful" -- who massacred the Muslim inhabitants of Jerusalem during the First Crusade; the faithful, who gave heed to "spectral evidence" at Salem; the faithful, who bayed for blood during the Reign of Terror; the faithful, who starved Kulaks by the millions; the faithful, who marched Jews into gas chambers; the faithful, who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Shanksville PA; the faithful, who stare with longing eyes at Barack Obama.

Please, whatever you do, no more faithful: we've had more than enough.

Originally Posted by copenhagen

There's no I in TEAM but there is a ME.

In the corporate world, the guys who are quick to accuse their colleagues of not being "team players" are usually the quickest to shirk work and walk away from the copier when it runs out of paper.

What I see are legions of over-educated young people, all terribly indulged, who want supervision, but can't discipline themselves enough to supervise themselves -- egged on by self-serving elders who get off on griping that "in the old days things were much better." Think of it as a bullsht merry-go-'round, and everybody's on for a ride.

[Dashy]

Originally Posted by slick_miester

That's funny, 'cause people who express a willingness to sacrifice scare me far more than any mere criminal. Let us catalog "the faithful" -- who massacred the Muslim inhabitants of Jerusalem during the First Crusade; the faithful, who gave heed to "spectral evidence" at Salem; the faithful, who bayed for blood during the Reign of Terror; the faithful, who starved Kulaks by the millions; the faithful, who marched Jews into gas chambers; the faithful, who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Shanksville PA; the faithful, who stare with longing eyes at Barack Obama.

Please, whatever you do, no more faithful: we've had more than enough.

Yeah, faith is a double edged sword, for every example you've put up there I can counter with a good'un, the faithful at Vienna when the turks came a calling, that small group of faithful who largely eliminated piracy in the south pacific
etc etc etc.

for example, I have a great amount of faith in my nation, the people here in NZ are largely wonderful chaps, I would probably put everything on the line to defend them and that way of life, but looking at my peers I believe, at least in my age group, I am one of very few.

And, no offence of course, but I believe you are one of the faithful too, if some red poser rocked on up to NYC and started to blow things to duggery, I'm sure you would do your best to show him what for, while all the hipsters ran for cover.

Faith is a wonderful, terrible and powerful thing, the people just have to stop messing with it

[Skoblin]

Originally Posted by slick_miester

I'd be more concerned with how the mere presence of labor-saving technology has failed to result in better use of consequently freed-up intellectual capacity. There are plenty of people around who make use of the technology to save labor, but they're not increasing their productivity because they refuse to recognize how potentially revolutionary some of the new technology really is. The net result is that they're no more productive than in the past -- only they're a whole lot lazier about it.

What might be worse, however, is how despite the capacity that new technologies have for opening up whole new vistas of thought, the only websites growing in popularity are porno and gambling. We have access to more than our grandparents could ever imagine, but we do less in a year than they did in a morning. That's shameful.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It says nothing about being productive. Most animals are happy and content when they can eat, sleep and procreate with little or no effort. Should Americans be any different?

[Rojik]

"History is but the pattern of silken slippers descending the stairs to the thunder of hobnailed boots climbing upward from below."

We've got our silk slippers on. The people of an earlier age where you yearn to be wore hobnail boots. The slipper age is the much more fun one.