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  #16  
Old 10 Jan 13, 09:33
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Originally Posted by Jack Torrance View Post
Lincoln also used his executive powers to allow freed slaves to become soldiers and sailors for the Union. A very significant step.

Emancipation Proclamation, January 1, 1863.

The EP was not just about freeing slaves but about changing the character of the struggle. The federal government was now not just fighting to maintain the union as it's sole objective but to destroy slavery. Once all the states in rebellion had been defeated and their slaves freed the remaining areas that had been exempted by the EP had no other course left but to also join the majority of free states.

This was a brilliant political move by Lincoln made with the conviction that slavery was wrong, a long held view. IMO, Lincoln was completely sincere and there was no dishonest attempt at using the EP as an deceptive announcement.
Agreed.
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Old 10 Jan 13, 10:51
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Lincoln also used his executive powers to allow freed slaves to become soldiers and sailors for the Union. A very significant step....The EP was not just about freeing slaves but about changing the character of the struggle.
That may well be the case, but among the Union military there was disagreement how to impliment these policies. As I recall, Sherman was opposed to using former slaves in the military.
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Old 10 Jan 13, 16:11
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That may well be the case, but among the Union military there was disagreement how to impliment these policies. As I recall, Sherman was opposed to using former slaves in the military.
Also very true, yet there was no shortage of officers who were willing to leave their regiments to act as officers for the newly formed regiments-even with the the threat of death from the Confederate government. It is ironic that these very steps would result in the Confederacy being forced to do the same, albeit too late (March of 65). Some officers, like Butler & Burnsides, were willing to take on blacks as soldiers. Others, like George Thomas, were initially reluctant, but came around to it & gained newfound respect for them.
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Old 10 Jan 13, 20:40
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It is ironic that these very steps would result in the Confederacy being forced to do the same, albeit too late (March of 65).
Didn't Lee have a plan to offer freedom to slaves that were willing to fight for him?

Quote:
Some officers, like Butler & Burnsides, were willing to take on blacks as soldiers. Others, like George Thomas, were initially reluctant, but came around to it & gained newfound respect for them.
And they certainly proved their worth, but there may have been another reason for their reluctance. There were still memories of the Nat Turner rebellion, and some whites feared empowering former slaves who might seek vengeance against their former masters.
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Old 10 Jan 13, 21:16
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Didn't Lee have a plan to offer freedom to slaves that were willing to fight for him?



And they certainly proved their worth, but there may have been another reason for their reluctance. There were still memories of the Nat Turner rebellion, and some whites feared empowering former slaves who might seek vengeance against their former masters.
Major General Patrick Cleburne had a proposal to enlist slaves and freedmen, which he presented at a staff meeting of the Army of Tennessee during March of 1862. It was quickly suppressed, but Major General W.H.T. Walker, allegedly a opponent and rival of Cleburne, sent a copy to Richmond. The matter was viewed as bordering on treason, and due to Cleburne's military reputation, was suppressed by Davis.

It wasn't reconsidered until spring of 1865, and by then it was too late to be effective.
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Old 10 Jan 13, 21:25
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That may well be the case, but among the Union military there was disagreement how to impliment these policies. As I recall, Sherman was opposed to using former slaves in the military.
You have excellent memory, Barca. My boy Sherman was a rabid racist and he refused to use Negro troops until the end of the war in spite of the fact he was ordered to do so (in Lincoln's own light touch method). Sherman was not opposed to use Negro troops as pioneers and as service troops though.

Quote:
Special Field orders No. 120

7. Negroes who are able-bodied and can be of service to the several columns may be taken along; but each army commander will bear in mind that the question of supplies is a very important one, and that his first duty is to see to those who bear arms.

8. The organization, at once, of a good pioneer battalion for each army corps, composed if possible of negroes, should be attended to. This battalion should follow the advance-guard, repair roads and double them if possible, so that the columns will not be delayed after reaching bad places. Also, army commanders should practice the habit of giving the artillery and wagons the road, marching their troops on one side, and instruct their troops to assist wagons at steep hills or bad crossings of streams.
Source W. T. Sherman memoirs




Ironically, Sherman issued an order that allowed for freed slaves 40 acres and a mule in the former masters plantations.

Quote:
Order by the Commander of the Military Division of the Mississippi

IN THE FIELD, SAVANNAH, GA., January 16th, 1865.

SPECIAL FIELD ORDERS, No. 15.

I. The islands from Charleston, south, the abandoned rice fields along the rivers for thirty miles back from the sea, and the country bordering the St. Johns river, Florida, are reserved and set apart for the settlement of the negroes now made free by the acts of war and the proclamation of the President of the United States.

II. At Beaufort, Hilton Head, Savannah, Fernandina, St. Augustine and Jacksonville, the blacks may remain in their chosen or accustomed vocations–but on the islands, and in the settlements hereafter to be established, no white person whatever, unless military officers and soldiers detailed for duty, will be permitted to reside; and the sole and exclusive management of affairs will be left to the freed people themselves, subject only to the United States military authority and the acts of Congress. By the laws of war, and orders of the President of the United States, the negro is free and must be dealt with as such. He cannot be subjected to conscription or forced military service, save by the written orders of the highest military authority of the Department, under such regulations as the President or Congress may prescribe. Domestic servants, blacksmiths, carpenters and other mechanics, will be free to select their own work and residence, but the young and able-bodied negroes must be encouraged to enlist as soldiers in the service of the United States, to contribute their share towards maintaining their own freedom, and securing their rights as citizens of the United States.

Negroes so enlisted will be organized into companies, battalions and regiments, under the orders of the United States military authorities, and will be paid, fed and clothed according to law. The bounties paid on enlistment may, with the consent of the recruit, go to assist his family and settlement in procuring agricultural implements, seed, tools, boots, clothing, and other articles necessary for their livelihood.

III. Whenever three respectable negroes, heads of families, shall desire to settle on land, and shall have selected for that purpose an island or a locality clearly defined, within the limits above designated, the Inspector of Settlements and Plantations will himself, or by such subordinate officer as he may appoint, give them a license to settle such island or district, and afford them such assistance as he can to enable them to establish a peaceable agricultural settlement. The three parties named will subdivide the land, under the supervision of the Inspector, among themselves and such others as may choose to settle near them, so that each family shall have a plot of not more than (40) forty acres of tillable ground, and when it borders on some water channel, with not more than 800 feet water front, in the possession of which land the military authorities will afford them protection, until such time as they can protect themselves, or until Congress shall regulate their title. The Quartermaster may, on the requisition of the Inspector of Settlements and Plantations, place at the disposal of the Inspector, one or more of the captured steamers, to ply between the settlements and one or more of the commercial points heretofore named in orders, to afford the settlers the opportunity to supply their necessary wants, and to sell the products of their land and labor.

IV. Whenever a negro has enlisted in the military service of the United States, he may locate his family in any one of the settlements at pleasure, and acquire a homestead, and all other rights and privileges of a settler, as though present in person. In like manner, negroes may settle their families and engage on board the gunboats, or in fishing, or in the navigation of the inland waters, without losing any claim to land or other advantages derived from this system. But no one, unless an actual settler as above defined, or unless absent on Government service, will be entitled to claim any right to land or property in any settlement by virtue of these orders.

V. In order to carry out this system of settlement, a general officer will be detailed as Inspector of Settlements and Plantations, whose duty it shall be to visit the settlements, to regulate their police and general management, and who will furnish personally to each head of a family, subject to the approval of the President of the United States, a possessory title in writing, giving as near as possible the description of boundaries; and who shall adjust all claims or conflicts that may arise under the same, subject to the like approval, treating such titles altogether as possessory. The same general officer will also be charged with the enlistment and organization of the negro recruits, and protecting their interests while absent from their settlements; and will be governed by the rules and regulations prescribed by the War Department for such purposes.

VI. Brigadier General R. SAXTON is hereby appointed Inspector of Settlements and Plantations, and will at once enter on the performance of his duties. No change is intended or desired in the settlement now on Beaufort [Port Royal] Island, nor will any rights to property heretofore acquired be affected thereby.

BY ORDER OF MAJOR GENERAL W. T. SHERMAN:
Source http://www.history.umd.edu/Freedmen/sfo15.htm
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  #22  
Old 10 Jan 13, 22:03
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Once all the states in rebellion had been defeated and their slaves freed the remaining areas that had been exempted by the EP had no other course left but to also join the majority of free states.

I'm not sure about that. It is my understanding that there was urgency in passing the 13th amendment before the war ended so that the Southern States could be excluded from the voting. Even so the vote was close and was accomplished only by using behind the scenes Machiavellian tactics.
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Old 11 Jan 13, 01:00
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Barca, the southern states had no say in the constitutional process until they were re-admitted into the union some time after the war
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Old 11 Jan 13, 06:47
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Barca, the southern states had no say in the constitutional process until they were re-admitted into the union some time after the war
Yes, that was the point of getting it passed early.
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Old 11 Jan 13, 09:06
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I'm not sure about that. It is my understanding that there was urgency in passing the 13th amendment before the war ended so that the Southern States could be excluded from the voting. Even so the vote was close and was accomplished only by using behind the scenes Machiavellian tactics.
Barca, when the 13th amendment passed and was ratified even the recalcitrant border states like Kentucky and Missouri had no other option but to free the slaves. That's historical fact. When Lincoln issued the preliminary EP he gave the rebelling states 100 days to return with their peculiar institution still intact. Of course, these states ignored the president and thereby insured that their peculiar institution would seize to be peculiar.

Adter the expiration of the 100 grace period the rebelling states went up the creek and lost all influence in the slavery question, except by the use of force of arms and the hope of winning. They lost, of course. Congress had to deal with the slavery issue with the representatives then available and Lincoln used tactics that were nothing out of the ordinary in order to get the necessary votes to pass the 13th amendment in the House. To say that these tactics were Machiavellian is to not really understand what Machiavellian tactics are.

A good example of Machiavellian tactics was attempted by Lee and Davis in their decision to invade Pennsylvania in 1863 with the hope their hoped for stay would influence the peace faction in the North to force a change in Lincoln's policy. Lee and Davis banked on this change to then begin negotiations that were contrary to those of the peace faction which wanted things to remain as they were anti-bellum. Lee and Davis did not want this but actual separation. That, IMO, is Machiavellian politics. Using deceptive measures to achieve a desired goal.
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Old 11 Jan 13, 10:23
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To say that these tactics were Machiavellian is to not really understand what Machiavellian tactics are.
....That, IMO, is Machiavellian politics. Using deceptive measures to achieve a desired goal.
You misunderstand, I wasn't denagrating them for their tactics.

Machiavellian tactics aren't necessarily evil or deceptive, although they do involve cunning.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money...rs-myths_n.htm

They have more to do with reality, i.e. what politicians actually do in the real world rather that what they "should" do in an ideal utopian world.

The point was that it wasn't a slam dunk. It required a lot of behind the scenes maneuvering to pass.

Last edited by Barca; 11 Jan 13 at 11:02.. Reason: addition
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Old 11 Jan 13, 11:20
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When Lincoln issued the preliminary EP he gave the rebelling states 100 days to return with their peculiar institution still intact. Of course, these states ignored the president and thereby insured that their peculiar institution would seize to be peculiar.

Adter the expiration of the 100 grace period the rebelling states went up the creek and lost all influence in the slavery question, except by the use of force of arms and the hope of winning..

Lets's say the Southern states had given up their pride and arrogance and agreed to return to the Union within the 100 day grace period. What then? Would they have been allowed to vote on the slavery question? Would that not have made it harder to pass the 13th amendment?
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Old 11 Jan 13, 19:45
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You misunderstand, I wasn't denagrating them for their tactics.

Machiavellian tactics aren't necessarily evil or deceptive, although they do involve cunning.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money...rs-myths_n.htm

They have more to do with reality, i.e. what politicians actually do in the real world rather that what they "should" do in an ideal utopian world.

The point was that it wasn't a slam dunk. It required a lot of behind the scenes maneuvering to pass.
An interesting review. Have you read the book?
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Old 11 Jan 13, 20:03
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Lets's say the Southern states had given up their pride and arrogance and agreed to return to the Union within the 100 day grace period. What then? Would they have been allowed to vote on the slavery question? Would that not have made it harder to pass the 13th amendment?
No doubt in my mind there would have been no thirteenth amendment to abolish slavery for decades since the EP was a war measure and the war would have ended. Interesting food for thought. IMO, states carved out of the then existing territories would not have come in as slave states thus isolating the slave states politically. Eventually, slavery would become a drag on the economy of the cotton states. Plus, foreign pressure would have forced the US to take measures to end slavery. So, in effect, slavery would have died out slowly but surely. Or maybe not. Who the hell knows?

What is your real point in asking this question, Barca? Are you suggesting that Lincoln was really a Macchiavelian politician who used the EP knowing the Southern rebellious states would reject it anyway?
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Old 12 Jan 13, 07:30
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An interesting review. Have you read the book?
The Prince? Yes, long time ago. Also his Art of war, somewhat less well known
The Biography? Not yet, but It's on my list of various other books to read.
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