HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Europe

Notices and Announcements

Europe Issues of modern Europe. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #346  
Old 10 Jan 13, 18:57
Dashy's Avatar
Dashy Dashy is offline
General
Pirate
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Scott Daly
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Salisbury, At least in Spirit
Posts: 4,974
Dashy is simply cracking [600]
Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Maybe Americans are better liars than New Zealanders: every dry state-house in the country had a bar directly across the street. Hell, one of the leading voices for Prohibition in the US Congress was caught with a 'still on his property.

What was it that Will Rogers said about his fellow Oklahomans: as long as they go to the polls when they're drunk, they'll vote to keep Oklahoma a dry state.

This is embarrassing to learn, that Kiwis've got more sense than Yanks. Even before the Federal Prohibition 1920-1934, many smaller jurisdictions tried it, and almost all of them flopped. Kiwis try it, it fails, they let it go: Americans try it, it fails, and they keep trying it anyway. Are we living up to Albert Einstein's definition of insanity?
Oh, us Kiwi's lack sense plenty in other areas, the greens have some 13% of the bleeding vote! if they keep up their current track they'll be the major opposition party.

now thats a horror story.
__________________
Slava Popede!
Reply With Quote
  #347  
Old 10 Jan 13, 18:59
slick_miester's Avatar
slick_miester slick_miester is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Marc
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 17,844
slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashy View Post
Oh, us Kiwi's lack sense plenty in other areas, the greens have some 13% of the bleeding vote! if they keep up their current track they'll be the major opposition party.

now thats a horror story.
What a relief! I don't think I could live knowing that we're dumber than you. Equal I can tolerate, but lower?

Rimshot
__________________
I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison
Reply With Quote
  #348  
Old 10 Jan 13, 19:11
Dashy's Avatar
Dashy Dashy is offline
General
Pirate
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Scott Daly
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Salisbury, At least in Spirit
Posts: 4,974
Dashy is simply cracking [600]
Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600] Dashy is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
What a relief! I don't think I could live knowing that we're dumber than you. Equal I can tolerate, but lower?

Rimshot
Thanks


The US and NZ founded the UN together, so I think we have equal capacity for unlimited stupidity and short-sightedness

__________________
Slava Popede!
Reply With Quote
  #349  
Old 11 Jan 13, 06:51
Rojik's Avatar
Rojik Rojik is online now
General of the Forums
Australia
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Keyser Söze
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bay 13
Posts: 7,581
Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Was the Afghan mission as unpopular in Oz as the Iraq mission was in the UK?
I don't know what the Brit attitude was so I can't really say, but unpopular doesn't really spring to mind when Afghanistan is mentioned. Necessary but ultimately futile would be where it's at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Diggers in the 'Nam were drafted?
The war seemed to be a hell of a lot less unpopular than that part of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
No, the post-1975 "peacekeeping mission, which only recently ended, no?
There were peacekeepers in Bougainville trying to keep a lid on separatist fighting, if that's what you mean. Also there have been Aus Federal Police units deployed all around that area in peacekeeping and / or civil assistance.

Short answer is that if there is another one going on then no-one gives much of a crap about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
So you don't like the country, nor the city. Are you a suburbanite?
No country. Just not deliverence country. Most places are a mix of good and bad but I do take issue about places where they eat what they run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
And yet the stats for accidental deaths have far outpaced homicides for years: I've provided the links enough times, go knock yourself out.
1/ The word 'accident' shapes things more than a bit.

2/ In any event things aren't static. Better safety standards, designs and education are always evolving.

3/ When someone falls off a ladder and kills 20 children we can always look at better ways of doing things there too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Are you honestly comparing the average citizen to al Qaeda?
Nope and you know it. I'm comparing classes of weapons. Some might kill more people p/a (say hand grenades) and yet the ones that are the real worry are hardly ever used (nuclear weapons).

Quote:
But by your argument, when the day comes that your teeth are the most dangerous weapon left in the neighborhood, they should be yanked from your mouth posthaste.
Really? Where did I say that?


Quote:
Thatnk you, Diane Keaton. What on earth makes you think that Australia's top leaders can't have people assassinated? Or how about less-than-top leaders? How about flunkey cops: can they at least taser fourteen year old black boys? Maybe that's how you rationalize the surrender of your sovereign rights: only nigroes need fear police.
You have assassination of your citizens as a matter of state policy and we have... a tasering? Really? That's the best you can do? We have guns but not as freely available as you do, you can be legally assasinated, we can be tasered, and we're the ones that should be worried about losing rights?

I'm guessing that with all the guns the US has black people have never had to worry about police overstepping the line on them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
I agree: little by little -- as we've imported more and more insidious influences from overseas (what Robert Conquest and Alain Besancon called "half-baked, trashy European ideas") we've strove to emulate them, and by so doing, we've surrendered our native personal sovereignty to an overbearing collective. I love my country, but she will no longer be "the land of the free and the home of the brave." She is fast becoming an incubator for cowards and hypocrites.
Which is my point that guns aren't safeguarding your freedoms. It's not what they do. They can help change a system but they don't keep the existing system on the straight and narrow. You do that with your attitude. You let them walk on you and they will no matter how armed up you are. They don't fear and armed population. They hate the unpredictability of it, but as long as the armed forces are loyal there really isn't anything to worry about. If they aren't then not much else matters other than either.

But look, I really don't care that much about the whole deal. Every second person around here would have some sort of firearm, and because the area is full of primary producers some would have the much dreaded 'semi-auto's'. I don't lose sleep over that. If I was living in the city and those ratios were the same I would though. Without having a real reason for such weapons sooner or later some of them would end up being used for mischief. What gets me is the intellectual dishonesty the gun lobby promotes and is then parroted by the minions of it. I prefer it when people just say something like "I don't give a if you aren't as safe as you'd like to be because I have a gun you don't like. I don't give a about gun crime. I don't even give a about who else has one. It says I can have 'em if I want 'em, and I want 'em. So off or I'll shoot you".

That's what I'd be saying if I was a US citizen. Reasons be rooted: it says I can so that's the end of the story.

I prefer insane honesty over sane dishonesty everyday of the week.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
So then Jimmy Hoffa should have "persuaded thousands of US truck drivers to refuse to handle any Australian goods exported to the US by cargo ships or planes"? Sauce for the goose, right?
Sure. Not that Cranky Franky had the pull with the mob that he thought he had after getting them involved in JFK and all the subsequent drama that entailed. I think Hoffa was at the end of his tether by that time too. But that doesn't matter. If that was the game he wanted to play with our ACTU then they would have found that he would have been stuck here for years. Stubborn. Unionist with a bee up his arse doubly so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
I don't particularly care about Sinatra one way or the other (besides, he's dead) but Australians' reaction to him then was little different than the mobs of Muslim morons who go batsh*t over Mohammed cartoons today. Do you really want the world to take away that impression?
Once again that's a nice big dose of hyperbole but that's fine. Whatever impression the world wants to take is its business. What matters is that we don't take crap from anyone that thinks they're better than us. Put someone like that in office and watch how long it takes for the place to grind to a halt.

Hmmm. This is getting novella length. Some serious fat trimming is needed IMO.
__________________
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Last edited by Rojik; 11 Jan 13 at 07:04..
Reply With Quote
  #350  
Old 11 Jan 13, 07:07
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
Summer Campaign Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: John "The HUMBLE"
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: APO AE 09131 Hqs EuCom
Posts: 35,230
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
You have assassination of your citizens as a matter of state policy and we have... a tasering? Really? That's the best you can do? We have guns but not as freely available as you do, you can be legally assasinated, we can be tasers, and we're the ones that should be worried about losing rights?
Yep, and we can toss all our bad people in jail for BS crimes for life.

I like your post Roj.
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

If God wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates.*


NO one wins a war!!!! They just lose less.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #351  
Old 11 Jan 13, 08:28
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Australia
Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 19,556
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
" ... I might be wrong, but is that the most left-handed compliment I've ever received?"
Dunno. What was the other one?

Boo-Boom!!!

(Rimshot? does that mean the same thing? )


Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
" ... But seriously, I would submit that that is not an aberration: that kind of dysfunction is an example of how the system is designed to operate. Right now my mother is dealing with a pair of junkies who are breaking into every house in the neighborhood. They're fed by a handful of bleeding-heart assholes*, and then they return to try to steal televisions and other items to be sold in exchange for drugs. Not only do these two have extensive records for B&E, they also have a a couple of assaults to their credit -- including two assaults of police officers! Judges issue orders of protection and restraining orders and whatnot, but when witnesses call the police reporting violations of those orders, the police only show up after the perps have left the proscribed premises, and then they refuse to pursue them -- even though they can be heard not thirty yards down the block fighting with their drunken father. I submit that the police and the district attorney are waiting for these two morons to really hurt someone, feeling that only then will they have a charge weighty enough to put these two away for years. They're waiting for someone to land in a hospital -- or a morgue -- before they finally do the right thing and put these slobs away. Hell, over Thanksgiving I was over there, and when it looked like they'd broken into the next door neighbor's house, the landlord -- a retired police officer, an older gentleman with diabetes -- retrieved his flashlight and revolver and effected entry into said premises. Watching his hand shake, I surely regretted my decision to leave home unarmed that night. This, unfortunately, is typical of my experiences with the criminal justice system, and after reading about some of the shenanigans in the UK, some of which were so shocking that they reduced me to tears, I would not be in the least bit surprised to learn that the same kinds of failures are just as common in Australia or New Zealand."
Proportional to size of population, yes I would tend to agree they probably are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
" ... That is not to say that Aussies or Kiwis are in any way worse or better than Britons or Americans, but when all the surface clutter is cleared away, our peoples and cultures share a thousand times more commonalities than we do differences."
Agreed, there are far more similarities than differences.

Imagine there is a thick plank of wood with ten 4" nails hammered into it. The nails are all on one side of the plank, spaced evenly apart in a straight line, to form a nice neat row. Nails 1-3 and 5-10 have all been hammered in so far that only 1/2" is left sticking out. Nail #4 has only been hammered in 1", leaving 3" still protruding.

Now, Joe Schmoe comes along, sees the hammer lying near the plank and decides to have a go. Which nail is he most likely to be tempted to hit first?

A relatively small number of differences, more often than not, will stand out and grab attention while a host of similarities will tend to get ignored, overlooked or taken for granted.

Which nations have been the most consistent and steadfast Allies of the USA in a number of wars over the last century?


Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
" ... *I'm more convinced than ever that the bleeding-hearts and do-gooders have done more harm to society than all of the gangsters put together: it is they who raise these antisocial types in their bosoms, arguing to all and sundry that "they're not really bad, only misunderstood," and "society made them this way," and other crapola. Take away the bleeding-heart and do-gooder crowd, the vast majority of these oddballs would either be taken out like yesterday's trash by their neighbors, or at least left to the inexorable logic of Charles Darwin."
... or, in a few cases perhaps, they'd lift their game because they know the free ride has come to an end.

Yep, I'm strongly inclined to agree with you on that, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
"It's a rationalization that covers for sporting a small . . . . endowment."
That might well explain some of the men who drive those things and never leave the suburbs. What about the women?


Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
You work? How much can an Aussie make shoveling bullsh*t -- mostly mine?

Rimshot
Does it really have to be yours? What about anybody's bullsh*t (albeit mostly of lower quality than yours, of course Marc)?

Answer: Take the salary and perks of our Prime Minister. Add the salary and perks of our Leader of the Opposition. Add together. Divide by two, to get the average. That's the amount an Aussie can earn. Those two shovel more bullsh*t than the rest of the country combined.
__________________
Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules!

Last edited by panther3485; 11 Jan 13 at 09:35..
Reply With Quote
  #352  
Old 11 Jan 13, 16:28
slick_miester's Avatar
slick_miester slick_miester is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Marc
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 17,844
slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
I'm guessing that with all the guns the US has black people have never had to worry about police overstepping the line on them.
I just wanted to address this tidbit while time allows. The modern gun-control movement, as we know it today in the United States, didn't start until the Black Panthers proposed an armed take-over and occupation of the statehouse in Sacramento CA. The National Firearms Act was amended in direct response to that notion, and more generally, a fear of a black armed insurrection. Note how awash African-American communities are in illegal firearms, just as they are in illegal narcotics: they're Jigs, so no one -- at least no one who draws any water -- gives a flying crap. "They're animals anyway, so let them loose their souls," so goes the greater society's logic. But the moment the notion was broached that African-Americans might turn their arms against the establishment, the establishment responded -- quickly. Now white people are merely reaping what they've sown. "What you have done to the least of my brothers" turns out to have political implications. Who knew?
__________________
I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison
Reply With Quote
  #353  
Old 11 Jan 13, 22:30
asterix's Avatar
asterix asterix is offline
Major
France
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Frenchy living in the US
Posts: 1,163
asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300] asterix is on a distinguished road [300]
FFS, what a train wreck this has become. This is beyond a doubt one of the more schizophrenic threads I've seen on this forum. I find myself wondering if most of you are not spider monkeys on crack. One member in particular (I'll not name, but I'm sure most of you can figure out who) made what I believe to be one of the dumbest post I've yet read in this new year. (In all honesty, I believe one of my dying houseplants has a higher IQ than you).

I regret that I've wasted much time reading through 24(!) pages of this nonsensical "we're better because we have *less*, *more*, *no* guns than you" claptrap, resembling some form of a satanic tennis match between meth fiends suffering from severe withdrawal symptoms. Why most of you cannot accept the fact that we're dealing with a fundamental cultural difference vis-a-vis the private ownership of firearms, the basis of which is implied by one country's constitution and not by others....is completely beyond me. I can only conclude there is a massive lack of respect for cultural perception on both sides of this issue, resulting in this thread going far outside the realm of examining historical cultural perceptions.

So, wrap your collective heads around this: I'm French, currently living in the US. I accept the fact that forever what myriad of reasons, for many Americans, the private ownership of firearms is sacrosanct. By the same token, I can understand why in Europe, given the lack of such explicit right in any one of the EU countries, we tend to view such allowance with a great deal of suspicion. I myself own several firearms which I could never own in France, or anywhere else in the EU. I am grateful that I am able to own such weapons freely. When I'm in France, I am equally grateful that very few, if any person can own such firearms, myself included. In other words, I am on equal footing with most people on either continent I choose to reside in.

That said, this thread should have ended on the first page with the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Back to the topic. Europeans in general don't want guns and see no need for them. Americans in general like and want guns. Really, do we need to say anything more?
There - now will all of you spider monkeys have a shot of your favorite liquor and go to bed?? Martiniquan Rhum for me.
__________________
You'll live, only the best get killed.

-General Charles de Gaulle

Last edited by asterix; 11 Jan 13 at 22:40..
Reply With Quote
  #354  
Old 12 Jan 13, 20:35
queensman's Avatar
queensman queensman is offline
Second Lieutenant
UK
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Dunstable
Posts: 419
queensman is on the path to success [1-99] queensman is on the path to success [1-99] queensman is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by asterix View Post
FFS, what a train wreck this has become. This is beyond a doubt one of the more schizophrenic threads I've seen on this forum. I find myself wondering if most of you are not spider monkeys on crack. One member in particular (I'll not name, but I'm sure most of you can figure out who) made what I believe to be one of the dumbest post I've yet read in this new year. (In all honesty, I believe one of my dying houseplants has a higher IQ than you).

I regret that I've wasted much time reading through 24(!) pages of this nonsensical "we're better because we have *less*, *more*, *no* guns than you" claptrap, resembling some form of a satanic tennis match between meth fiends suffering from severe withdrawal symptoms. Why most of you cannot accept the fact that we're dealing with a fundamental cultural difference vis-a-vis the private ownership of firearms, the basis of which is implied by one country's constitution and not by others....is completely beyond me. I can only conclude there is a massive lack of respect for cultural perception on both sides of this issue, resulting in this thread going far outside the realm of examining historical cultural perceptions.

So, wrap your collective heads around this: I'm French, currently living in the US. I accept the fact that forever what myriad of reasons, for many Americans, the private ownership of firearms is sacrosanct. By the same token, I can understand why in Europe, given the lack of such explicit right in any one of the EU countries, we tend to view such allowance with a great deal of suspicion. I myself own several firearms which I could never own in France, or anywhere else in the EU. I am grateful that I am able to own such weapons freely. When I'm in France, I am equally grateful that very few, if any person can own such firearms, myself included. In other words, I am on equal footing with most people on either continent I choose to reside in.

That said, this thread should have ended on the first page with the following:



There - now will all of you spider monkeys have a shot of your favorite liquor and go to bed?? Martiniquan Rhum for me.
Wot e said

Time to lock the thread before we all become orangutans on speed. I am no angel, but even i have stopped because its got too nasty.



... .... .. -
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:53.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.