HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War I

Notices and Announcements

World War I The war to end all wars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 19 Dec 12, 03:35
GreenTiger's Avatar
GreenTiger GreenTiger is offline
First Lieutenant
UK
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: hofheim
Posts: 579
GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99]
I blame the Americans.

FMs original first point:
"To help acquire and support a future German World Empire".

Ten years ago in Die Zeit there was a full-page article based, so it was claimed, on documents and letters in the military archives in Freiburg by Henning Seitz, describing German plans for an attack on US eastern seaports.

The idea which picked up steam in winter 1897/8 was to seize key ports like Norfolk,Hampton Roads, and Norfolk News, and extract from the USA a "free hand" in Atlantic and Pacific. The Kaiser felt humiliated by the manner in which Bismark sensibly backed away from any conflict with the US over Samoa in 1889; even worse was when 5 German cruisers sent as "neutral observers" were slapped around by Dewey as he blockaded the Philippine ports, regarding them as potential opponents and not neutrals. No Spanish spoils for Germany either.

If Wilhelm wanted a world empire and to go head-to-toe with the US as a starter then a big fleet was a pre-requisite.

The plans for a lightning strike on the US were kicked around for about ten years, and involved various modifications, including a direct assault on New York, and the seizure of Puerto Rico and Culebra to control a future transoceanic canal. (fantasies opposed consistently by Schlieffen).

The plan (in its third version) was finally dropped in 1906, and one of the reasons was the show of force by the US Fleet in 1903, when Britain, Italy and Germany decided to blockade Venezuela to enforce debt repayments. This time around Dewey turned up with 54 warships as a "neutral observer", and the Europeans backed down. Even the Kaiser got the message. So evidently did Roosevelt and Dewey - they now regarded Germany as the next probable enemy in war.

Interesting tale.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 19 Dec 12, 03:50
Full Monty's Avatar
Full Monty Full Monty is offline
General of the Forums
EU
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Dick Barton
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Essex
Posts: 26,444
Full Monty has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickuru View Post
The construction of the High Seas Fleet, had been proposed by 1896. This is from Steinberg, page 19. The proposal to build a fleet of cruisers had been rejected by the Reichstag. Tirpitz wrote to Admiral Gustav Freiherr von Senden Bibran as follows:

"Our representation in the Reichstag and the whole situation could hardly have been more unfortunate. The State Secretary of the Foreign Ministry represents the Navy, blows a fanfare for cruisers and shoots at sparrows with his biggest guns. What sort of powder will impress the Reichstag later when the really serious demands are made?"

The High Seas Fleet had been planned since before 1896, so the data from Jane's Fighting Ships of1894 is relevant.

The High Seas Fleet did not suddenly appear like a comet in 1906. Naval warfare preparation was already at work.
There's nothing here that really conflicts with what I've already posted. Berghahn quotes from Tirpitz, referring to an exchange of letters in 1895. The Navy Bills of 1898 and 1900 didn't come out of nowhere, nothing of that scale ever does. They had to be justified and Berghahn makes a good fist of explaining how that was done.
Quote:
Nice to be insulting and sarcastic, and taking no heed or even considering opinions other than your own.
It is, although I wasn't being. I was asking about the relevance of the story regarding the 'miracle' (something usually associated with divine intervention) of how records survived! You seem rather sensitive when challenged, even to the point of claiming that no-one likes your posts! Relax a little, we're not on different sides.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 19 Dec 12, 06:07
Full Monty's Avatar
Full Monty Full Monty is offline
General of the Forums
EU
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Dick Barton
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Essex
Posts: 26,444
Full Monty has disabled reputation
Looking at the specifications of the early German battleships it's striking that there is a five year gap between the commissioning of the first four 'Brandenburg' class vessels in 1890 and the first two of the subsequent 'Kaiser Friedrich' class (which was the last commissioned prior to the 1898 Bill).

http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflo...ips/index.html

Compare that to the commissioning rate subsequently

1898 - 3
1899 - 3
1900 - 2
1901 - 2
1902 - 3
1903 - 1
1904 - 2
1905 - 2

Which effectively takes us to the end of the pre-dreadnought era.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 19 Dec 12, 06:38
Selous's Avatar
Selous Selous is offline
General of the Forums
UK
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: The Black Lion of Powys
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 8,208
Selous gives and gets respect [800] Selous gives and gets respect [800]
Selous gives and gets respect [800] Selous gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickuru View Post
Nice to be insulting and sarcastic, and taking no heed or even considering opinions other than your own.
You're all brittle like a brandy snap Nick, relax squire
FM's just critiquing the various points made, not having a go at you personally. In my opinion he's much on the money, for reasons I've outlined elsewhere on this forum in recent threads. I haven't seen a rebuttal of those points on the High Seas Fleet I made
__________________
This message is not intended to represent the views of the citizens or government of the United States of America.
------
'Niall Ferguson is wrong' - Gary Sheffield
'Lord Palmerston!' - Barney Gumble
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 19 Dec 12, 07:54
Javaman's Avatar
Javaman Javaman is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NY
Posts: 1,466
Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenTiger View Post
FMs original first point:
"To help acquire and support a future German World Empire".

Ten years ago in Die Zeit there was a full-page article based, so it was claimed, on documents and letters in the military archives in Freiburg by Henning Seitz, describing German plans for an attack on US eastern seaports.....

Interesting tale.
I saw the article, the original 'plan' was written by a Navy lieutenant which is hardly a serious threat.
__________________
"Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics"
-Omar Bradley
"Not everyone who studies logistics is a professional logistician, and there is no way to understand when you don't know what you don't know."
-Anonymous US Army logistician
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 19 Dec 12, 14:56
Nickuru's Avatar
Nickuru Nickuru is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
UK
 
Real Name: Nick Wolf
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 1,489
Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Monty View Post
Codswallop. The so-called 'super-dreadnoughts' with the oil-fired steam turbines were the 'Queen Elizabeth Class' not the 13.5" armed dreadnoughts you refer to. As has been pointed out before, whilst the German guns were of a smaller calibre they had a greater muzzle velocity, additionally the ships were more heavily armoured and had superior fire control systems. Sorry to point out these inconvenient facts.

Codswallop! as you term my facts, so I shall term yours. The Orion, King George V and Benbow classes were termed superdreadnoughts in 1911 with their 10 13.5 inch calibre guns. This designation was necesary for political purposes to get the naval bills passed an apathetic Parliament. The term superdreadnoughts to refer to the Queen Elizabeth, Barham, Malaya, Valiant and the Warspite only started in 1915, with the commisioning of this class.

Even here you are at variance with the facts. Germany rejected British overtures for an 'Entente' despite several British efforts at the end of the 19th Century. Given the size and openly stated object of the HSF the British can hardly have been said to have 'overreacted'.

Nope, an agreement of Britain having staggered 4 battleships a year and then 3 battleships per year, while Germany alternated 2 battleships per year and 1 battleship per year, was violated by England. "We want eight and we won't wait" was the war cry of the Naval lobby at the time.

Nope. Check the alliance systems from the War of Austrian Succession and the subsequent Seven Years War and note which side Prussia is on in one vis-a-vis Britain compared with the other. History, my friend, is complex and rarely linear.
Ever heard of the Napoleonic wars?
__________________
When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law N 8
Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
"Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 19 Dec 12, 16:05
Full Monty's Avatar
Full Monty Full Monty is offline
General of the Forums
EU
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Dick Barton
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Essex
Posts: 26,444
Full Monty has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickuru View Post
Ever heard of the Napoleonic wars?
Prussia fights the French 1806-7 then has a large contingent in the invasion of Russia and finally is 'bought' by the British who subsidise the cost of the army.

As for the 'super-dreadnoughts', I'll stick to my guns given that convention has these as being the QE's. But I understand why you'd want to refer to the 13.5" dreadnoughts as 'Super'. I'm sure we can swap 'codswallops' like gentleman! (See, that's the spirit, fight fire with fire!)

I've been looking at the battleship lists for the British in the 'Dreadnought' era and I can't find any year that eight were commissioned, laid down, or launched. 1912 and 1913 seem pretty busy but total construction for that era, at least to the start of the war, comes to 26 (including the QEs) against the German 19 (including 'Baden' and 'Bayern'). Note I've just totted up from the lists so my figures could be slightly out. Also note I've not included the battle-cruisers.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 20 Dec 12, 05:09
Selous's Avatar
Selous Selous is offline
General of the Forums
UK
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: The Black Lion of Powys
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 8,208
Selous gives and gets respect [800] Selous gives and gets respect [800]
Selous gives and gets respect [800] Selous gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickuru View Post

The High Seas Fleet had been planned since before 1896, so the data from Jane's Fighting Ships of1894 is relevant.
It's relevant for some context but it doesn't account for the Naval Laws which caused Britain's ire, thus it's of reduced relevance compared to those articles.
If you're trying to examine cause and effect you will not find too much cause before a certain time, but plenty after it. That time is the 1900 - 1910 period of German fleet building, the building being the cause, the effect being British ship building in earnest to counter act it.
__________________
This message is not intended to represent the views of the citizens or government of the United States of America.
------
'Niall Ferguson is wrong' - Gary Sheffield
'Lord Palmerston!' - Barney Gumble
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 20 Dec 12, 06:55
GreenTiger's Avatar
GreenTiger GreenTiger is offline
First Lieutenant
UK
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: hofheim
Posts: 579
GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99] GreenTiger is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javaman View Post
I saw the article, the original 'plan' was written by a Navy lieutenant which is hardly a serious threat.
Maybe.

But it seems that the idea was taken seriously by the top German naval brass, developed and refined to an extent that Schlieffen got involved to try to kill it.


However Im not planning to drive any time soon 3 hours down the autobahn to Freiburg to check out the original docs. Ill leave that to Herr Hof on his next vacation.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 20 Dec 12, 08:10
Javaman's Avatar
Javaman Javaman is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NY
Posts: 1,466
Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100] Javaman has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenTiger View Post
Maybe.

But it seems that the idea was taken seriously by the top German naval brass, developed and refined to an extent that Schlieffen got involved to try to kill it.


However Im not planning to drive any time soon 3 hours down the autobahn to Freiburg to check out the original docs. Ill leave that to Herr Hof on his next vacation.
Sounds interesting if not somewhat outlandish. Without looking at the individual capabilities of German warships, wouldn't the US East coast be out of operating range for any German battleships of that era? The idea of seriously considering an attack that far away with no experience in major naval or amphibious warfare on a shoestring seems pretty remote at best. I'd love to see more though.
__________________
"Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics"
-Omar Bradley
"Not everyone who studies logistics is a professional logistician, and there is no way to understand when you don't know what you don't know."
-Anonymous US Army logistician
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #71  
Old 20 Dec 12, 12:15
broderickwells's Avatar
broderickwells broderickwells is offline
General of the Forums
New_Zealand
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Auckland
Posts: 9,130
broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] broderickwells has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javaman View Post
Sounds interesting if not somewhat outlandish. Without looking at the individual capabilities of German warships, wouldn't the US East coast be out of operating range for any German battleships of that era? The idea of seriously considering an attack that far away with no experience in major naval or amphibious warfare on a shoestring seems pretty remote at best. I'd love to see more though.
Since when has reality been a basis for military planning?
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 20 Dec 12, 13:29
billscottmorri's Avatar
billscottmorri billscottmorri is offline
Colonel
Scotland
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
 
Real Name: bill morrison
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lausanne, Switzerland
Posts: 1,935
billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200] billscottmorri is walking in the light [200]
The reason why Germany elected to get into an arms race is something that still seems to be an open question. Massie's work very much suggests that it was an issue of national dignity rather than anything practical. Remember during this general era the USA invested buckets of loot in building Roosevelt's Great White Fleet so not having a big boat navy would probably have been intolorble to an econonmically and politically successful Germany.

It has been sugested in other threads that the German ships were far less able to operate for long periods at sea and was not designed as a global strike force unlikew the Royal Navy. This suggests that is ws intended as a European based force rather than an expression of German global imperialism.
__________________
What would Occam say?
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 20 Dec 12, 14:54
Glenn239's Avatar
Glenn239 Glenn239 is offline
General
Canada
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ontario
Posts: 5,385
Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200] Glenn239 is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javaman View Post
I saw the article, the original 'plan' was written by a Navy lieutenant which is hardly a serious threat.
I've read on this plan. I should be able to cite the book. I seem to recall that it was lower-level planning associated with one of the naval departments responsible for strategic planning. The army considered it ASB and I seem to recall the whole thing was ordered stopped. Don't think the Kaiser had anything to do with it.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 21 Dec 12, 08:05
Nickuru's Avatar
Nickuru Nickuru is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
UK
 
Real Name: Nick Wolf
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 1,489
Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99] Nickuru is on the path to success [1-99]
This from Johnathan Steinberg's Yesterday's Deterrent: The German naval bill was resoundingly rejected in March of 1897. Admiral Hollman, the State Secretary of the Imperial Naval Office lost his job because of this.

Admiral Hollman had been an advocate of cruisers and torpedo boats. "As long as I stand here, no boundless plans (i.e. no battleships) will be proposed". Admiral Tirpitz who took over, had other ideas. He was a consumate politician and succeeded in getting his first naval bill passed in 1898.
__________________
When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law N 8
Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
"Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

Last edited by Nickuru; 21 Dec 12 at 08:22.. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 21 Dec 12, 11:13
The Purist's Avatar
The Purist The Purist is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
England
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Gerry Proudfoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In my castle by the sea.
Posts: 11,228
The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Indeed. Tirpitz and the Kaiser wanted a "prestige" fleet, not a fleet that would actually be of value to Germany's needs.
__________________
The Purist

Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 15:59.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.