South Africa - Better or worse off?

[Destroyer25]

This is a pretty touchy subject, but I think we can keep it civil.

I was wondering if anyone (preferably our South Africans or other knowledgeable people), could give their opinion on whether South Africa is better off now than they were during Apartheid.

Now obviously apartheid is horrible and we don't want something like that ever again. But I'm currently under the impression that under Apartheid at least South Africa had a strong economy in which people (even the blacks) had jobs. Now it's run by a bunch of Communists who rape girls with AIDS and think taking a shower afterwards will rectify that problem.

[andrewza]

The economy has never been has strong has it is know. And most of the problems we face are not the result of the black governments actions but more the results of the old white governments inaction.

Has for the Rape case. Zuma was found not guilty and the women has a history about lying on rape cases.

ANC is not communist never has been. There is a separate communist party and the ANC has communists in it. But the ANC has more a western european out look than a red china out look.

[Jonathanrex1]

If I can remember correctly, a past National Geographic issue had a story on South Africa.

It showed that the proportion of non-white people classified as middle-class as increased dramatically.

Access to clean water has also improved.

The only thing that is worse, or at least stable, is life expectancy. In large part due to the recent AIDS/HIV epidemic.

[Wilpanzer]

The Apartheid government was in a lot of debt after they had fought in Angola. Economically, we have been going down since the latter Apartheid years.

Politically, I think it's going to be much worse. If I look at the discontent sown by factions within the ANC(for example the ANC Youth League) I can only hope that the right people will stay in power. The power relations within the ANC are definitely shifting.

He who controls the ignorant masses, controls South Africa. I know a lot of people that strike every month, but still vote for the ANC hoping that a miracle would happen. I've read about an informal settlement that lost complete support from the ANC - they got no food, no water and no electricity for a few months...the Democratic Alliance supplied everything they could, but yet when the municipal elections came, ANC got a majority vote of 90%.

As for the white folks here...I don't know how our future looks. We are at the mercy of ignorance. It's scary to see that black nationalism not only shuns white people and white history, but it also encourages the elimination of the white man in Africa. We are staring the possibility of genocide in the face, but I can also say that a lot of white people are too arrogant and too apathetic to even consider the future here.

It happens that many will momentarily think of the state of the country, but they will not take any action whatsoever. Afrikaner organizations like Afriforum are doing a lot of good things at the moment, but most just comfortably live behind their palisade fences.

We have approx 50 million people here.
Only 5.3 million pays tax.
That 5.3 consists of mostly white people.

[Half Pint John]

Originally Posted by andrewza

The economy has never been has strong has it is know. And most of the problems we face are not the result of the black governments actions but more the results of the old white governments inaction.

Has for the Rape case. Zuma was found not guilty and the women has a history about lying on rape cases.

ANC is not communist never has been. There is a separate communist party and the ANC has communists in it. But the ANC has more a western european out look than a red china out look.

I have a problem in buying that. Apartheid ended close to 20 years ago. The black led government has had a long time to right past wrongs. Twenty years after the end of Hitler the Germans were a growing economic power. Why hasn't the UoSA done better than they have? Cannot keep blaming all things negative on whites.

[Destroyer25]

Originally Posted by Half Pint John

I have a problem in buying that. Apartheid ended close to 20 years ago. The black led government has had a long time to right past wrongs. Twenty years after the end of Hitler the Germans were a growing economic power. Why hasn't the UoSA done better than they have? Cannot keep blaming all things negative on whites.

White Imperialists have been an extremely convenient scapegoat for African despots, dictators and warlords to blame their problems on. In reality South Africa's current problems are due to the place being run by Socialists and Commies.

[andrewza]

I can not find any communist in SA top leadership. Actually the opposite a lot of them have out side businesses. And unlike germany there is no Super power backing us up. And the only real problem is crime and AIDS. Factions in ANC are a ANC problem and only make them weaker. And we are bet of now than we where during Apartheid. And we are in the process of improving all aspects of the country. We are still the best place to life in Africa and having been over seas to Germany and the Netherlands would not move.

@ Wilpanzer.

Where do you get 5.3 million. And remember many of that 50 million are not even South African and causal workers(farm labors, waiters extra) do not pay income tax. But we all pay Tax there is VAT, sin tax, fuel tax and a host of other taxes we pay.


And the ANC youth league has suffered a major blow since there leaders where thrown out. Any case I have yet to meet a black person (I work in a black dominated organization) that supports the youth league. Actual they told me there supports are small in numbers compared to the main ANC party. They just very loud. And they bus in members to there rally's.

[Wilpanzer]

Originally Posted by andrewza

I can not find any communist in SA top leadership. Actually the opposite a lot of them have out side businesses. And unlike germany there is no Super power backing us up. And the only real problem is crime and AIDS. Factions in ANC are a ANC problem and only make them weaker. And we are bet of now than we where during Apartheid. And we are in the process of improving all aspects of the country. We are still the best place to life in Africa and having been over seas to Germany and the Netherlands would not move.

@ Wilpanzer.

Where do you get 5.3 million.

It's a 2007 statistic. I didn't have the time to check out more recent statistics, but for income tax, that is a bit appalling.
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politic...2941&sn=Detail

[Half Pint John]

Originally Posted by Destroyer25

White Imperialists have been an extremely convenient scapegoat for African despots, dictators and warlords to blame their problems on. In reality South Africa's current problems are due to the place being run by Socialists and Commies.

In your view Germany is also run by Socialist. Why is their economy no worse off than that of the US? It some areas better and when it comes to international trade much better than the US economy. You can't use Socialist as a catch bag of all the problems of a country.

[Wilpanzer]

African Tribalism
'nuff said

[Half Pint John]

Originally Posted by Wilpanzer

African Tribalism
'nuff said

that is my take as well. Same thing that still plagues much of the Middle East, Afghanistan and Pakistan that we read daily. Time to move forward but old cultures are hard to change.

[andrewza]

Originally Posted by Wilpanzer

African Tribalism
'nuff said

It is more than that. It is a large number of problems. Some of them the result of past actions and the new regime not fixing them. (Electricity and public transport has examples. But they are trying to fix them) some are new (health care (AIDS TB extra) is a big one) some have gotten worse (crime and corruption). Here are what I think are the causes

Past regime (there where a lot of problems remember they only really cared about the voters eg whit people)
A long transition from Apartheid to where we are now
Corruption (less than most african countries more than the 1st world)
Poor leadership and government

[Wilpanzer]

Originally Posted by andrewza

It is more than that. It is a large number of problems. Some of them the result of past actions and the new regime not fixing them. (Electricity and public transport has examples. But they are trying to fix them) some are new (health care (AIDS TB extra) is a big one) some have gotten worse (crime and corruption). Here are what I think are the causes

Past regime (there where a lot of problems remember they only really cared about the voters eg whit people)
A long transition from Apartheid to where we are now
Corruption (less than most african countries more than the 1st world)
Poor leadership and government

Well, I'd say these are problems which scratch the surface, but if you look deep into the ANC and African culture you see a whole different mindset.
The other day I had a chat with a beggar, a black man lives opposite our house and the beggar went to him and he was simply sent away with the words "You'll have your turn"

I don't really understand what the words mean in logic. I know people who went to Zambia. The one tribal chief sent his own mother packing because she couldn't pay rent. The one guy also could not pay 10 oxes for marriage to the other party's family, the bride was put under house arrest until he paid. The local government would also claim half of a person's salary if they just recommended him for a job.
On the other hand, you have to show a lot of respect. In some regions in countries like Zambia you have to sit or kneel if you talk to someone with higher rank, you have to clap hands to show approval, you may not run to someone of higher social rank, you have to slowly walk to him...
So it's quite ironic.

Tribal traditions may not be so prominent here, but I still see Xhosas, Zulus, Vendas, Tswanas etc. sit and eat separately. The Zulus especially are more aware of their identity and don't break bread that easily.

AIDS also cannot be seen as something on its own. In many black cultures people are encouraged to be as "fruitful" as possible. It also leads to poverty.

I think, with a few year's research, a lot can be concluded from African tribalism, we must accept that it's not the same as European culture. By simply reading the newspaper every day I know for sure that it has a significant effect on what we have today. Without apartheid, even without Europeans here, African tribes would have gone forward with the tribal wars. The involvement of colonists and European refugees only created a catalyst to an ongoing struggle. Africa cannot be tamed and it never will be.

[andrewza]

The zulus are a proud bunch some may say a tad racist, but I work with all groups in my job and it never causes any trouble. There are places in Africa where the tribal dived is bad. Look at Nigeria or the great lake region. SA has more a black on black racism than tribe on tribe war.


On ADIS. I have all ways wondered dose SA have the highest aids rate. I mean most other african countries have no statics or if they do they incomplete or not released. At least we admit we have a problem. And there are awareness campaigns and other measures to help reduce the problem.


Africa has all ways been a place of war. The only difference the white man brought was some body to sell the slaves to and drop the spears for guns.

[niikeb]

The vast majority of nations on this planet can go to hell in a handbasket with the blink of an eye. South Africa is no different.

Look at 1927 Germany. Yes there was an indication that war would again start, but the holocause and the magnitude of Nazi Germany was not even thought about.

So yes, the ruling South African party is taking a page out of the Chavez cook book, and dividing the nation. But that is no different than Gordon Brown in Britain, or Obama in the USA, or Erdoğan in Turkey.

Sure I would give South Africa a higher chance of going into genocidal madness than Switzerland, but most nations on this planet are half an inch from the edge of madness, and turning into the next North Korea.

From an economy point of view they are doing things right. If they continue on the economic path, they should enjoy prosperity that will trickle down to the middle class.

And if anything the fear is that they will turn into a black version of the Apartheid government.

But I think the fear of nations going off the cliff is more apparent in Afghanistan, Venezuela, Nigeria, Sudan, Syria, Pakistan, etc...

Remember, building an economy takes decades of progress. Not every nation has the advantages that post war Germany and Japan had, or Israel, and Saudi Arabia had. Israel Germany and Japan had homogeneous motivated populations, Saudi Arabia had Petrodollars.

Germany and Japan really started uniting in the mid 1800s, Israel started united, thanks to 2,000 years of ghettos. South Africa has a long time to get to being a similar nation state as any of those nations.