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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Napoleonic Era

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Napoleonic Era Discuss the many wars fought around the globe around the time of Napoleon. This forum is dedicated to the memory of Ben Weider.

View Poll Results: Support the Republican Women Society?
Yes 12 85.71%
No 2 14.29%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 07 May 12, 15:19
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Political Issue - Gameturn 3 - Round 2

The Hébertists have chosen to suggest 'Support to the Society of Republican Women' in the National Convention:

SUPPORT THE SOCIETY OF REVOLUTIONARY REPUBLICAN WOMEN


"Citizen legislators, you have given men a Constitution; now they enjoy all the rights of free beings, but women are very far from sharing these glories. Women count for nothing in the political system. We ask for primary assemblies and, as the Constitution is based on the Rights of Man, we now demand the full exercise of these rights for ourselves."

Ever since the start of the Revolution, the women also wanted to play a part in it. They did so by marching upon Versailles in october 1789 and also by bravely joining the men in the storming of the Tuileries last summer. Since then they have also created a political society...but this has never been officially supported. As Chaumette has said: "The sans culotte, had a right to expect from his wife [to attend to] the running of his home while he attended political meetings: hers was the care of the family: this was the full extent of her civic duties."

-The Faubourg St. Antoine offers + 5 popularity instead of only 3
BUT

-Since women will not support them, those opposed lose 5 points if involved in an INSURRECTION!

All players of the different political parties - as part of the French government - will now be allowed to discuss, debate and vote on the motion suggested by the Hébertists.
The poll only has two options:accept OR refuse

The poll will close during the POPULARITY PHASE of gameturn 4 - together with the QUARTIER LATIN poll.



Greets,
FATE


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  #2  
Old 09 May 12, 02:11
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I see no particular reason not to support this, seems to the benefit of all.
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Old 09 May 12, 05:04
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We believe it only just to allow women to possess land or other property; that it is equally just to count their votes since they are obliged, like men, to pay royal taxes and fullfil business contracts. Since representatives must absolutely have the same interests as those they represent, women should rightfully be represented by women.
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Old 09 May 12, 05:32
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Women were active not only during the bread riots, they were also very involved in pursuing the revolutionary war against foreign opponents of the revolution. They contributed tons of household linen as bandages for the wounded. This linen, the woman’s dowry, was intended to last for life. Women have contributed their wedding rings, the most pawnable piece of property any woman had in order to clothe volunteers. Women who had roiled all day turned up when they had put their children to bed to knit stockings for the soldiers on the front. Moreover and much more significantly, they undertook personally to conduct the internal war while their husbands and sons went to the front the war against traitors at home. On the outbreak of war, women armed themselves with pitchforks and pans and declared they would defend their homes and children in the absence of their men, and if their men were defeated...then they would make the last stand. The women armed themselves with kitchen knives and their children with ladles and set out to meet the invaders. The women of Port en Bessin erected coastal defenses lest the English should take them unawares.

It is now time...for men to acknowledge contributions by women and support the 'Society of Republican Women' in the National Convention.
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  #5  
Old 09 May 12, 07:41
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Post

Let me get this straight, we are at war, we have a command and leadership crisis, our finances are a mess, and every able body is needed in the fields to avert a famine next winter... and the Hebertists come up with this!!!??

Another smokescreen, pure demagoguery to keep the people distracted from the real problems of France, and the total incompentency and inability to solve them of the Hebertist government.

This is not what France needs right now, it's not what the women of France want.

What the women of France want is bread on the table to feed their children! They want their grown up sons and their husbands to come home!

Peace and bread! That's what the people yearn for. Everything else is secondary, and can wait.


We should not bother wasting time in this. Let the Hebertist government, or what passes for it, to quietly drop this issue and put forward an issue more in touch with reality.

Besides, for the sake of the France, I feel is my duty to offer constructive criticism and helpful advice to the misguided Hebértist government, who in their haste to pretend to be doing something, has not fully considered the consequences of passing this law.

Simply put, women are not ready for being given the vote, save a very small educated minority who can exercise their will.

Come on Hebértists, think about it, you think by giving a theoretical right to women you are going to endear women to you and you are going to increase your popular support.

Quite the opposite, most women don't care about politics, they care about their family, they want bread, and their want their men back, and giving the vote to women, rather than increasing your support is giving power to all those you have persecuted, exiled and imprisoned, the mothers, widows, sisters and daughters of those that you have murdered, sent to the scaffold or the lantern will take this opportunity as a chance to topple you from power. In effect, you will be increasing the number of your opponents.


Furthermore, even if not predisposed against you, most women simply will not know what to do with their vote, and they will heed the opinion of authority figures like their husbands, or even worse, their priests. The Church still retains a powerful ascendancy over the women of France. So this scheme of yours will backfire.

Finally, it shows you don't understand women at all. The majority of the women of France, the aristocracy and gentry, the bourgesie, the common Catholic peasants, would be opposed to the empowerment of the harlots of the sans-culottes The worst enemy of a woman is another woman.

Summing it up, this hare brained idea is going to cost you far more support than it will gain you, not to mention that most men of France, including your supporters would be against you.

You can see now that's what dastardly Royalist of Tombelaneige has figured out and that's why he voted for it, and probably others as well.


Ordinarily I would enthusiastically support this measure and view with glee your downfall, but as tempting as it is, the responsibility we, members of the Convention, have towards France compels me to point out how misguided it is, and that you should pick some other issue wich is more useful for the common good.

Last edited by von Junzt; 09 May 12 at 08:14..
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Old 09 May 12, 08:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
(...)
You can see now that's what dastardly Royalist of Tombelaneige has figured out and that's why he voted for it, and probably others as well.
The Duc, who was half asleep in a quiet corner of the assemblé, startled at the mention of his name:

"Citoyen, you overestimate me, such complicated line of reasoning is quite beyond us poor disowned nobility,

mme Tombelaneige as soon as she heard of this, made me promise I grant her her undeniable rights right this minute, or I wouldn't get any for the duration of this revolution"
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Old 09 May 12, 09:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
disowned nobility,

madame Tombelaneige as soon as she heard of this, made me promise I grant her her undeniable rights right this minute, or I wouldn't get any for the duration of this revolution"
Don't play the fool, Tombelaneige, before, only kings could obtain a marriage annullment, now, thanks to the revolution, every citoyen can get a divorce. You can change mares during the race, so to speak.

Your previous irritating attacks on General Dumouriez confirm me that you are not up to anything good by supporting this measure, but speaking of wich, let's set aside all this ill timed, ill conceived proposition about women right's, it's a waste of time.

Instead, I demand to know what the Hebertist government plans are for the conduct of war or the undertaking of peace negotiations so either victory or an acceptable peace can be achieved.

I also demand to know when the Comittee of Public Safety is going to be convened and who has been appointed to it so the affairs of state can be taken care of.
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Old 09 May 12, 11:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
Let me get this straight, we are at war, we have a command and leadership crisis, our finances are a mess, and every able body is needed in the fields to avert a famine next winter... and the Hebertists come up with this!!!??

Another smokescreen, pure demagoguery to keep the people distracted from the real problems of France, and the total incompentency and inability to solve them of the Hebertist government.

This is not what France needs right now, it's not what the women of France want.

What the women of France want is bread on the table to feed their children! They want their grown up sons and their husbands to come home!

Peace and bread! That's what the people yearn for. Everything else is secondary, and can wait.

We should not bother wasting time in this. Let the Hebertist government, or what passes for it, to quietly drop this issue and put forward an issue more in touch with reality.

Besides, for the sake of the France, I feel is my duty to offer constructive criticism and helpful advice to the misguided Hebértist government, who in their haste to pretend to be doing something, has not fully considered the consequences of passing this law.

Simply put, women are not ready for being given the vote, save a very small educated minority who can exercise their will.

Come on Hebértists, think about it, you think by giving a theoretical right to women you are going to endear women to you and you are going to increase your popular support.

Quite the opposite, most women don't care about politics, they care about their family, they want bread, and their want their men back, and giving the vote to women, rather than increasing your support is giving power to all those you have persecuted, exiled and imprisoned, the mothers, widows, sisters and daughters of those that you have murdered, sent to the scaffold or the lantern will take this opportunity as a chance to topple you from power. In effect, you will be increasing the number of your opponents.

Furthermore, even if not predisposed against you, most women simply will not know what to do with their vote, and they will heed the opinion of authority figures like their husbands, or even worse, their priests. The Church still retains a powerful ascendancy over the women of France. So this scheme of yours will backfire.

Finally, it shows you don't understand women at all. The majority of the women of France, the aristocracy and gentry, the bourgesie, the common Catholic peasants, would be opposed to the empowerment of the harlots of the sans-culottes The worst enemy of a woman is another woman.

Summing it up, this hare brained idea is going to cost you far more support than it will gain you, not to mention that most men of France, including your supporters would be against you.

You can see now that's what dastardly Royalist of Tombelaneige has figured out and that's why he voted for it, and probably others as well.

Ordinarily I would enthusiastically support this measure and view with glee your downfall, but as tempting as it is, the responsibility we, members of the Convention, have towards France compels me to point out how misguided it is, and that you should pick some other issue wich is more useful for the common good.
Idiot!

This political issue was one proposed by your own party!
Your own party member, madame Persephone, was the one who originally submitted this proposal to the assembly:
Quote:
All the signs are that we are about to suffer a violent shock. Our fathers, husbands and our sons may perhaps be the victims of our enemies' fury. Could we be forbidden the sweetness of avenging them or dying at their sides? Do not think, however, we propose to abandon our domestic duties, which are ever dear to our hearts, to our families and our homes.

No, Messieurs! We only wish to be allowed to defend ourselves. You cannot refuse us, and society cannot deny us this right, which is given to us by nature, unless it is claimed that the Declaration of Rights does not apply to women.

Let us arm ourselves; it is our right, by nature and even the law; let us show the men that we are not inferior to them, either in virtues or in courage; let us show Europe that French women know their rights.

At last, the time is ripe for women to emerge from their shameful nullity, where the ignorance, pride and injustice of men have kept them enslaved for so long. Let us return to a time when women fought side by side with their men.

This same madame Persephone who signs her political posts with the statement:
Quote:
Rights of Man, Woman and Citizen" ~ Therimordorian Party
If that was not enough, madame Persephone's proposal was seconded by Comte Maximilien DuBarin - another member of the Thermidor party:
Quote:
Comte Maximillan DuBarin applauds his companion. "Here Here! "He says standing. The nobleman smiles with pride as he says,"If we real men do not give these women their rightful place,it will be a cold day in hell for many!" He pauses and looks around at the crowd."Our women is what looks after us. It is only fair that they are treated as human beings,not second class citoyens!"
He clears his throat and begins again,"We can and must do more!"
Are the members of the Thermidor party so disorganized that they find it necessary to speak out against policy proposals that they themselves have proposed? Or was this original proposal on the part of the Thermidors regarding the emancipation of women just a clever ploy to attract the support of the women of France - one to be opposed if actually put to the test? I hereby call upon madame Persephone and le Comte DuBarin to denounce the remarks made by le Chevalier d'Harcourt.

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Old 09 May 12, 13:28
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Angry

Watch your words, citoyen Skoblin! I would demand a satisfaction but you are beneath my dignity. According to the convention diary of sessions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratego View Post
The Hébertists have chosen to suggest 'Support to the Society of Republican Women' in the National Convention:


[]All players of the different political parties - as part of the French government - will now be allowed to discuss, debate and vote on the motion suggested by the Hébertists.

This motion has been put forward by your own party, it is irrelevant who made the original suggestion, the fact is that is the party that has the majority in the convention the one that proposes the political issue. By proposing this issue, whatever your motives for doing so, it's your political position now. And I reaffirm it's a mistake and not what France needs now.

Madame Persephone has not communicated any of his intentions and has not proposed to submit this issue for our consideration, not that I know of. In our private debate club, my other colleague, citoyen Marshal Webb asked what was the official position of the Thermidor party in this issue, as he didn't have any prior knowledge of it, either.

It's true the issue has been proposed before in the convention, and turned down because there was no interest in it and far more urgent concerns. It was not even submitted to a formal vote.

Of course, this is obviously a ploy of the Hebertists to sow division and unrest among their political opponents and distract attention from their incompetency!

Madame Persephone has her own agenda, that's right every member of the Thermidor party is entitled to his own opinion, unless we agree on a common position.

Well, fine, go ahead, I don't care if the motion prospers or not. Like I said, it will backfire on you. I just regret that the Convention wastes time on this and postpones the adoption of more urgent measures. That will be our undoing.

Last edited by von Junzt; 09 May 12 at 13:45..
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Old 09 May 12, 15:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
Let me get this straight, we are at war, we have a command and leadership crisis, our finances are a mess, and every able body is needed in the fields to avert a famine next winter... and the Hebertists come up with this!!!??

Another smokescreen, pure demagoguery to keep the people distracted from the real problems of France, and the total incompentency and inability to solve them of the Hebertist government.
You could be right.


Quote:
This is not what France needs right now, it's not what the women of France want.
In this, how would you know it's not what women want? Or maybe, you misspelled and intended to write, "it's not what we-men want"?


Quote:
What the women of France want is bread on the table to feed their children! They want their grown up sons and their husbands to come home!
I think it's safe to say, that indeed is what we men, and not just women, want for all peoples of France!


Quote:
Peace and bread! That's what the people yearn for. Everything else is secondary, and can wait.
Indeed, what can be better than peace and bread? How about, peace and bread and something to eat the with the bread? We cannot set our sights too low, you know.


Quote:
We should not bother wasting time in this. Let the Hebertist government, or what passes for it, to quietly drop this issue and put forward an issue more in touch with reality.
But since this issue is here, we might as well take a vote on it, and maybe your party can suggest on what the next issue will be?


Quote:
Besides, for the sake of the France, I feel is my duty to offer constructive criticism and helpful advice to the misguided Hebértist government, who in their haste to pretend to be doing something, has not fully considered the consequences of passing this law.

Simply put, women are not ready for being given the vote, save a very small educated minority who can exercise their will.
Why would women find it difficult to exercise their will? Is it because it hasn't been given the opportunity to be exercised for so long, you fear that their "will" has entropied? I think their actions even if only one considers the recent events should have settled that little misconception.


Quote:
Come on Hebértists, think about it, you think by giving a theoretical right to women you are going to endear women to you and you are going to increase your popular support.
No doubt increasing popularity is one of their goals, but it doesn't make the current issue trivial.


Quote:
Quite the opposite, most women don't care about politics, they care about their family, they want bread, and their want their men back, and giving the vote to women, rather than increasing your support is giving power to all those you have persecuted, exiled and imprisoned, the mothers, widows, sisters and daughters of those that you have murdered, sent to the scaffold or the lantern will take this opportunity as a chance to topple you from power. In effect, you will be increasing the number of your opponents.
IF it increases the number of their opponents, then that should make it better for your party? Or, will it increase MORE opponents for YOUR party? What's your fear, exactly? And I don't know about women not being interested in politics, maybe you can tell that to the women who form the Society that they're not interested in politics?


Quote:
Furthermore, even if not predisposed against you, most women simply will not know what to do with their vote, and they will heed the opinion of authority figures like their husbands, or even worse, their priests. The Church still retains a powerful ascendancy over the women of France. So this scheme of yours will backfire.
On that note, maybe we should remove the vote from some men, as well? Maybe, make it a requirement of the vote, to determine if a person is under the "powerful ascendancy" of the Church or not?


Quote:
Finally, it shows you don't understand women at all. The majority of the women of France, the aristocracy and gentry, the bourgesie, the common Catholic peasants, would be opposed to the empowerment of the harlots of the sans-culottes The worst enemy of a woman is another woman.
Indeed, and the worst enemy of man is...? We've had all men in politics, I don't see that it has helped peace any, either.


Quote:
Summing it up, this hare brained idea is going to cost you far more support than it will gain you, not to mention that most men of France, including your supporters would be against you.
Your concern is hearwarming, indeed it is.


Quote:
You can see now that's what dastardly Royalist of Tombelaneige has figured out and that's why he voted for it, and probably others as well.


Ordinarily I would enthusiastically support this measure and view with glee your downfall, but as tempting as it is, the responsibility we, members of the Convention, have towards France compels me to point out how misguided it is, and that you should pick some other issue wich is more useful for the common good.

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Old 09 May 12, 15:20
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Originally Posted by Skoblin View Post
Are the members of the Thermidor party so disorganized that they find it necessary to speak out against policy proposals that they themselves have proposed? Or was this original proposal on the part of the Thermidors regarding the emancipation of women just a clever ploy to attract the support of the women of France - one to be opposed if actually put to the test? I hereby call upon madame Persephone and le Comte DuBarin to denounce the remarks made by le Chevalier d'Harcourt. [/FONT][/SIZE]

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Indeed, I'd like to hear madame's and sir's response to the recent statement by their partymate.
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  #12  
Old 09 May 12, 16:53
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This is not about women's rights. This is about the Hebertists using this issue to boost their flagging support while neglecting due attention to the affairs of the state.

Those who vote for, and are not Hebertist minions, are plotting and insurrection and their chances of success would be hurt if they opposed the measure. So those who voted in favour are plotting treason.

It's ironic, but through this motion meant to empower women, it only results in them becoming playthings.


And Feuillant, answering your rethorical question about limiting the right to vote, yes, I personally advocate the restriction of suffrage. I think most of the population is not prepared yet for universal suffrage. The Revolution has given liberty to the people but they don't know what to do with it. By extending the vote to women, you are just compounding the error. We will all regret it.


But like I said, fine, I can see when a fight is lost, go ahead, and be damned. It will backfire on its proponents, or gain them little, but it will cost France dear that we waste time in petty politics while the nation is threatened by war, ruin and famine, and we should be thankful that we haven't added plague to our list of woes yet. When things go sour, nobody will deny that I told you so.

Last edited by von Junzt; 09 May 12 at 16:59..
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Old 09 May 12, 20:03
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Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
Watch your words, citoyen Skoblin! I would demand a satisfaction but you are beneath my dignity. According to the convention diary of sessions:




This motion has been put forward by your own party, it is irrelevant who made the original suggestion, the fact is that is the party that has the majority in the convention the one that proposes the political issue. By proposing this issue, whatever your motives for doing so, it's your political position now. And I reaffirm it's a mistake and not what France needs now.

Madame Persephone has not communicated any of his intentions and has not proposed to submit this issue for our consideration, not that I know of. In our private debate club, my other colleague, citoyen Marshal Webb asked what was the official position of the Thermidor party in this issue, as he didn't have any prior knowledge of it, either.

It's true the issue has been proposed before in the convention, and turned down because there was no interest in it and far more urgent concerns. It was not even submitted to a formal vote.

Of course, this is obviously a ploy of the Hebertists to sow division and unrest among their political opponents and distract attention from their incompetency!

Madame Persephone has her own agenda, that's right every member of the Thermidor party is entitled to his own opinion, unless we agree on a common position.

Well, fine, go ahead, I don't care if the motion prospers or not. Like I said, it will backfire on you. I just regret that the Convention wastes time on this and postpones the adoption of more urgent measures. That will be our undoing.

I am in total agreement with Le Chevalier d' Harcourt. Certainly, women's rights should be addressed but not if it will distract from our war efforts. First and foremost is food and peace, in that order. Once this is accomplished, then and only then, should we address equal rights for men, women & citizens.

I must say, I was pleasantly surprised that this issue has been brought before the National Convention by the Hébertists.

Regards,
Mme Persephone
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Old 09 May 12, 21:47
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Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
I am in total agreement with Le Chevalier d' Harcourt. Certainly, women's rights should be addressed but not if it will distract from our war efforts. First and foremost is food and peace, in that order. Once this is accomplished, then and only then, should we address equal rights for men, women & citizens.

Regards,
Mme Persephone
It would seem, madame Persephone, that you are in disagreement with your fellow party member, madame Persephone.

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Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
It is now time...for men to acknowledge contributions by women and support the 'Society of Republican Women' in the National Convention.
Further, if madame Persephone believes that "now is not the time" to address the question of women's rights (even though she also believes "now is the time"), why did she introduce such a motion in the first place back in February? Did the problems of food and war not exist at that time?

I also note that madame Persephone states "I am total agreement with Le Chevalier d'Harcourt". Thus, I must presume that madame Persephone believes that
1). Equality is not what the women of France want
2). French women are not ready to be given the vote
3). Most French women are not interested in politics
4). Most French women will simply not know what to do with their vote

If these are not the positions of madame Persephone, then she is not in total agreement with Le Chavalier d'Harcourt.

If these are the positions of madame Persephone, then she is not in total agreement with madame Persphone who was bold enough to demand equality for women just a few short months ago.


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Old 09 May 12, 22:53
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As I've previously stated, not at the expense of the war.

It is apparent...the Hebertists are incapable of multitasking. Let's just deal with ONE issue at a time, satisfied???
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Last edited by Persephone; 09 May 12 at 23:02..
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