German campaign of 1813 without Austrian intervention

[Zouave]

Without Austria, could the allies, Russia and Prussia, have defeated Napoleon in Germany in 1813?

[Zouave]

Full disclosure to all of you...

I don't have an agenda (hidden or otherwise). I don't want to blame Austria for ending the rule of Napoleon or anyting else. Finally, I'm not a paranoid man and I don't have a crystal ball.

In 1813, Napoleon won two hard-fought victories at Lützen and Bautzen against Prussia and Russia. The outcome of the campaign was hanging on the balance before the armistice (during this time Allied negotiations finally brought Austria out in open opposition to France).

My question is simple and this kind of poll is supposed to be fun (without any agenda).

[Post Captain]

Originally Posted by Zouave

Full disclosure to all of you...

I don't have an agenda (hidden or otherwise). I don't want to blame Austria for ending the rule of Napoleon or anyting else. Finally, I'm not a paranoid man and I don't have a crystal ball.

In 1813, Napoleon won two hard-fought victories at Lützen and Bautzen against Prussia and Russia. The outcome of the campaign was hanging on the balance before the armistice (during this time Allied negotiations finally brought Austria out in open opposition to France).

My question is simple and this kind of poll is supposed to be fun (without any agenda).

Zouave my mate....you are asking a simple question..some 'members' think because you mention Austria, it is their poxy domain...bugger them, they want to spoil the enjoyment of history....then i feel sorry for their sad existence....pity them for their nastiness and being petty. We know the fool who questions this...do as the others do ignore him.

[Stratego]

Originally Posted by DaveHollinsMBA

Probably not, given the length of Russian LoCs, but a rather pointless question, given Austria's position. It is like asking how UK would have got on against Nazi Germany without US involvemnet (assuming adolf hadn't declared war).

It will also be construed by some on here as an opportunity to "blame" Austria for ending the rule of that nice Mr. Bonaparte.

There are no pointless questions...everything is open for discussion here.
However, you have just provided a pointless answer and it is a waste of space.

[Stratego]

Thanks Mickey for deleting this pointless answer...

[Post Captain]

Originally Posted by Stratego

Thanks Mickey for deleting this pointless answer...

As i shall do with this person..an enemy of Napoleonic history.

[DaveHollinsMBA]

I'll look forward to your contribution to the subject, which has managed five posts without an intelligent comment. I am sure you will advance ideas based on extensive research among many materials. No doubt, you can explain why you have voted "Yes" or was it just the flip of a coin.

By all means, live in your fantasy world - it is why some sections of the hobby are considered a bit strange by the wider public. If you are not capable of rational argument, don't join in - if you are, by all means, put forward an intelligent idea.

Oh, hang on - intelligence is something you probably cannot even spell, let alone use.

[DaveHollinsMBA]

Originally Posted by Stratego

There are no pointless questions...everything is open for discussion here.
However, you have just provided a pointless answer and it is a waste of space.

Okay, do illuminate us as to why Austria would have stayed out of the war. I hope to hear an analysis of Austrian policy right from 1792 to 1813 and the competing voices in the Emperor's ear.

If you cannot do that, then the question is pointless - as considering Austrian policy during the period only takes you one way.

The question itself has been raised many times and only leads to claims that Austria was responsible for overthrowing that nice Mr. Bonaparte in some kind of revenge and/or attempt at territorial aggrandizement. It is a claim pursued by his fans, who lack the capacity to consider all the factors involved.

If you disagree, then please illuminate us (or perhaps just me) on Austrian policy. Please quote from national materials and good secondary analysis, not the trite nonsense of the well-known recent authors, who could not even read German.

A discussion can be useful, such as why N invaded Spain or Russia - but that it os time better spent than on something, which is surrounded by agendas (not that I was accusing the OP of having one).

[General Brock]

This is why U can't deal with this guy, he is mister know-it-all...

Oh did I mention rude and ignorant.

[Post Captain]

And one i can delete for trolling... Funny how this 'great historian' keeps coming to a site where he is most unwelcome, then again it is just to do what he does best...be rude and insulting. At least we have a real historian in Kevin, who happens to be a gentleman and if us Amateurs make an error he politely corrects us.

[Dibble201Bty]

To be quite honest I like David because he fights his corner from the Austrian camp (who else does that?). OK, he may over egg his argument and appears to have an agenda with Kevin that at times borders on the obsessive and may give a 'sharp edge' to him and others but when It does come to Austria, he is pretty damn good.

And here is the bit you may not like! Why censor his post? It was his opinion, he may have come up sharp, he may have posted comments within it that pointed the sword at the Napoleon admirers camp, (I do it all the time, can I expect censorship in the future?) he none the less gave an opinion of what he though of the scenario, more than what I am doing at the moment because like him I see the poll as pointless here and should be sent to the alternate timeline stickie 'just my opinion though!'.

Paul

[Post Captain]

Yes Paul you stand your ground...but you do not do it a nasty way...a big difference. Some members in the past have been banned for name calling and insults to other members...but as of now Hollins is on my ignore list....i could not care less what the Austrians have done....no interest to me as this fool has in his usual pig ignorant way has pointed out...don't speak German, don't do this and so on, so i have no rights to comment on Austria. I sometime thought he was an interesting historian not anymore..his Osprey Marengo has been consigned to the bin....i am not worthy to read it after all
And at the end of it all...he is killing interest in what Austria achieved in this period...and it will be consigned to history's dustbin..because someone with a degree thinks they own Austria's history and is so arrogant not to listen or correct people's mistakes.. in a polite and decent way...pity him. Pity him that a degree could not make him a decent human being.

[Zouave]

Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty

Why censor his post? It was his opinion, he may have come up sharp, he may have posted comments within it that pointed the sword at the Napoleon admirers camp, (I do it all the time, can I expect censorship in the future?)

Paul,

This is unfair coming from you.

Have you ever been censored here at the Napoleonic forum (when you stood your ground)? I don't think so.

How many times have you ever been censored by me? Zero!

You and Mr. Hollins are worlds apart.

This forum has been very quiet in the last 2 years. Nowadays, most of the posts deal with uniforms and plates. That's fine, I love a good plate, but I would like to see more debate.

With that in mind, very late at night, I decided to create a new poll, to try and spark things up. Oh boy... Didn't I do that (in the wrong way)?

Rest assured... I will think very carefully before ever creating a new poll or thread.

Have a nice day.

[Stratego]

Originally Posted by Zouave

Rest assured... I will think very carefully before ever creating a new poll or thread.

Don't you ever think twice before posting a thread Z...or anybody else for that matter!

Everybody is allowed to post whatever they want on Napoleonic history here as my name is Jason...

If you can't give an answer, because you don't have enough knowledge, then you don't reply and wait for someone else to respond and dig in afterwards if you feel like it.

If you think you have an answer/opinion then you post it, if is wrong, then I expect other forum members to react to it in a decent way!

If you post an answer and those that do not agree then that's where the debates start in a decent way!

Accusing someone of a 'pointless thread' is ridiculous. Then just don't answer and offer others the possibility to react to it...
Since when do we judge a thread here?

I will not go elaborate any further on this...these are the rules!
Live with them or get out!



Greets,
Stratego

[Baztanz]

I would tend to agree with Zouave here Paul. If you are discussing Napoleonic period some of that discussion will inevitably spill over into a "what if" situation.
If you dont want a forum that has bits and pieces of threads all over the place then keeping them within the era is the best place.
Also like Paul I feel the Napoleonic forum has become ho humm, we need gritty stuff to re-kindle some stirring debate and discussion.

In regard to Dave Hollins I do admire his tenacity and like others regard his knowledge of Austria quite valuable, its his personality I have issues with but in the whole when he becomes over-bearing I just move on and read the next thread.