HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion

Notices and Announcements

American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 05 May 12, 13:09
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Harold Peterson's The Book of the Continental Soldier has some interesting comments on the effectiveness of the Kentucky or Pennsylvania rifle in combat:

'Colonel, now General Tarleton, and myself, were standing a few yards out of a wood, observing the situation of a part of the enemy which we intended to attack. There was a rivulet in the enemy's front, and a mill on it, to which we stood directly woth our horses' heads fronting, observing their motions. It was absolutely a plain field between us and the mill; not so much as a single bush on it. Our orderly-bugler stood behind us about three yards, but with his horse's side to our horses' tails.A rifleman passed over the milldam, evidently observing two officers, and laid himself down on his belly; for in such positions, they always lie, to take a good shot at a long distance. He took a deliberate and cool shot at my friend, at me, and at the bugle-horn man. Now observe how well this fellow shot. It was in the month of August, and not a breath of wind was stirring. Colonel Tarleton's horse and mine, I am certain, were not anything like two feet apart; for we were in close consultation, how we should attack with our troops which laid 300 yards in the wood, and cold not be perceived by the enemy. A rifle-ball passed between him and me; looing directly to the mill I evidently observed the flash of the powder. I directly said to my friend, 'I think we had better move, or we shall have two or three of these gentlemen shortly amusing themselves at our expence.' The words were hardly out of my mouth when the bugle-horn man behind me, and directly central, jumped off his horse and said, 'Sir, my horse is shot.' The horse staggered, fell down, and died...Now speaking of this rifleman's shooting, nothing could be better...I have passed several times over this ground and ever observed it with the greatest attention; and I can positively assert that the distance he fired at us was full 400 yards.'-Colonel George Hanger, page 41.

'I have many times asked the American backwoodsman what was the most their best marksmen could do; they have constantly told me that an expert rifleman, provided he can draw good and true sight...can hit the head of a man at 200 yards. I am certain that provided an American rifleman was to get a perfect aim at 300 yards at me standing still, he most undoubtedly would hit me, unless it was a very windy day.'-George Hanger, 42.

'If muskets were given them instead of orifles the service would be more benefitted, as there is a superabundance of riflemen in the Army. Were it in the power of Congress to supply muskets they would speedily reduce the number of rifles and replace them with the former, as they are more easily kept in order, can be fired oftener and have the advantage of bayonets.'-Secretary of the Board of War, 43.

'The riflemen, however desterous in the use of their arm, were by no means the most formidable of the rebel troops; their not being armed with bayonets, permitted their opponents to take liberties with them which otherwise would have been highly improper.'-LtCol JG Simcoe, 43.

'...about twilightis found the best season for hunting the rebels in the woods, at which time their rifles are of very little use; and they are not found so serviceable in a body as musketry, a rest being requisite at all times, and before they are able to make a second discharge, it frequently happens that they find themselves run through the body by the push of a bayonet, as a rifleman is not entitled to any quarter.'-an anonymous British officer, 43.

'Riflemen as riflemen only, are a very feeble foe and not to be trusted alone any distance from camp; and at the outposts they must ever be supported by regulars, or they will constantly be beaten in, and compelled to retire.'-George Hanger, 43.

'...meeting a corps of riflemen, namely riflemen only, I would treat them the same as my friend Colonel Abercrombie...treated Morgan's riflemen. When Morgan's riflemen came down to Pennsylvania from Canada, flushed with success gained over Burgoyne's army, they marched to attack our light infantry, under Colonel Abercrombie. They moment they appeared before him he ordered his troops to charge them with the bayonet; not one man out of four, had time to fire, and those that did had no time given them to load again; the light infantry not only dispersed them instantly but drove them for miles over the country. They never attacked, or even looked at, our light infantry again without a regular force to support them.'-George Hanger, 43-44.

Peterson's conclusion based on his research and primary source evidence:

'What, then, was the usefulness of the American rifle as a military weapon? As had been noted, it had accuracy and range, but it was handicapped by its slowness and lack of a bayonet. Obviously it was useless as an army for regular infantry, but its assets and the special skilles of its users made it a fine weapon for certain troops, such as light infantry, scouts, snipers, and skirmishers supported by regular troops. Morgan himself recognized this, and at the battle of Cowpens when he had command of a force embodying both riflemen and regular infantry, he used them in that manner. He deployed his army in three lines, the first two embodying militia and riflemen and the third line composed of regular infantry of the Continental Line. As the battle developed the first two lines, according to instructions, took as heavy a toll of the advancing British as they could and then retired behind the line of regulars which met the enemy with a volley and the bayonet...The rifle, then, was not, as some have claimed, 'the gun that won the American Revolution.' but supported by musketry and used in accordance with its special attributes, it was a very useful and deadly weapon.'

Also of note, rifles could be loaded and fired without the 'greased patch' which made it slow to load, and was then just another musket in the firing line, being able now to be loaded and fired quickly, especially at close range, as Beale's riflemen did on the far right of the American line at New Orleans where the long range capability of the rifle was not needed.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 05 May 12, 22:16
johnbryan's Avatar
johnbryan johnbryan is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 16,535
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Pruitt,

The analogy of the shotgun for artillery using canister and grapeshot is accurate as to the spreading of the round upon firing and leaving the gun tube.

Canister and grape shot also had a ricochet effect depending on the shape of the ground. Flat terrain enhanced the ricochet effect, which dampness and mud would retard it. And the Plains of Chalmette Battlefield's water table being less than a shovel full or two of earth below the surface would certainly have retarded that ricochet effect. British Engineers were forced to build completely ineffective artillery positions out of seized hog's head barrels of plantation farmer's sugar, because the water level was so very high and just below the surface. British burial details, following the January 8 battle quickly found this to be fact when they tried to bury their fallen warrior bretheren and were ineffectually able to do so. It is said the whole battlefield stunk like a charnel house for an entire year following the battle, after so many rotting British bodies were pushed to the surface of the eternally water soaked soil.

Roundshot was very effective in ricochet, again depending on the shape of the ground. The kinetic energy of a roundshot was very high, and the round ricocheting could double the range of the round, from the rated 1000 yards to about 2000 yards, again depending on the condition of the ground. And roundshot was still dangerous until it stopped rolling. It could still mame while rolling. Take a 6- or 8-pound shot put in track-don't try and stop it with your foot while it is still rolling as you might injure yourself. And what a modern shotput actually is is a modern version of roundshot.Which only illustrates my point even moreso. Every US cannonball would be fired into what amounted to be little more than a bog.

The rated distance for small canister was about 400 yards and for heavy it was about 700 yards. That is in the period manuals, of which I have US, British, French, Russian, Austrian, Prussian, and Spanish artillery manuals of the period. And they iron balls that made up the canister rounds would finally stop rolling as their kinetic energy was expended.

Regarding the French heavy artillery weights that I posted, yes, those are for the French. That was in response to the incorrect sweeping statement '...as each gun tube alone weighed 4 tons or more' which they did not. Sweeping statements are rarely accurate and in this case they are wrong. Then tell me, what does a US 24 Pound gun weigh?

The Americans had little or no problems employing their artillery of whatever origin, one of the reasons was that the artillery platforms in the fortifications were very well constructed. Says who? Those fortifications were shoveled together and thrown up over a two week period out of what amounts to be a swamp.And the British remarked that the field was swept by artillery fire and that the greater majority of the casualties were caused by artillery.

I've used the following references for New Orleans and none of them mention that the rifle had a major effect on casualties inflicted on the British army:

-The US Army in the War of 1812, 2 volumes, by Robert Quimby.
-Amateurs, To Arms by John Elting.
-The War of 1812 by Henry Adams.
-The Battle of New Orleans: A British View-The Journal of Major CR Forrest
-Historical Memoir of the War in West Florida and Louisiana in 1814-1815 wth an Atlas by Arsene Lacarriere Latour.
-Artillery of the Napoleonic Wars by Kevin F. Kiley.
-The British at the Gates: The New Orleans Campaign in the War of 1812 by Robin Reilly.
-A British Eyewitness at the Battle of New Orleans: The Memoir of royal Navy Admiral Robert Atchison 1808-1827.

None of the above sources mention that the use of the rifle had an effect on the overall outcome of the battle. Some of them say that it was a combination of the US artillery and the musket, others that artillery caused the overwhelming numbers of British casualties.

Sincerely,
M
And most, if not all of the dozen or so accounts I used say otherwise, especially the first hand, eye witness accounts of men who saw and witnessed it all in realtime.
__________________
"Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

Last edited by johnbryan; 05 May 12 at 22:27..
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 06 May 12, 04:06
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
As most of the engaged troops were issued with muskets and not rifles, your point is moot. Coffee's men, once again, were barely engaged and Beale's company was engaged in a close-quarter firefight where the range advantage of the rifle was nullified.

What is key, here, are the British accounts as they were on the receiving end of the American artillery fire as well as the eyewitness accounts of the condition of the British dead and wounded-they were mangled, the wounds being horrible, and those were not caused by rifle fire.

In short, again, you are wrong and the material that you've submitted doesn't say what you say it does.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

Last edited by Massena; 06 May 12 at 04:13..
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 06 May 12, 04:17
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
If you actually take a look at the source material that I have provided and use good source material for New Orleans you'll find the accounts of how well the artillery platforms were constructed in the American lines. Two weeks is more than sufficient to construct excellent artillery platforms. Latour's account is excellent on this point.

If you don't understand the construction of artillery batteries and platforms, see Volume 1 of Louis Tousard's American Artillerist's Companion.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 06 May 12, 04:22
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
If I recall correctly, I did state that the condition of the ground was essential for the ricochet effect.

However, the US artillery did not fire 'into the ground' but into massed infantry in company columns (that means battalions were formed with companies one behind the other). Roundshot would take a terrible toll of troops formed like this, and at close range canister would be murderous. You might want to take a look at the three artillery books by BP Hughes for artillery effects on target.

As for the weight of an American 24-pounder, it would be much less than 'over four tons.' That is why I noted the weights of French naval and siege guns in the thread-the US had adopted the Gribeauval System in 1809 and while the adoption was only partial, more to the gun carriages and other artillery vehicles and equipment, I have seen no period 24-pounder that weighed over four tons. Again, take a look at Tousard.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 06 May 12, 05:47
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
If, as you say, the ground at Chalmette was a 'near-bog' it certainly didn't hinder the movement of the British infantry nor the ability of the American artillery on 1 January to outshoot and defeat the British artillery under Dickson. The British artillery position was shot to pieces and the British had to withdraw-they also ran out of ammunition.

And Dickson was an excellent artillery officer and commander. His five-volume manuscripts are a gold mine of artillery operations by the allies in the Peninsula. He also left a manuscript of 1814-1815, which covers New Orleans.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

Last edited by Massena; 06 May 12 at 10:07..
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 06 May 12, 20:36
johnbryan's Avatar
johnbryan johnbryan is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 16,535
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
If I recall correctly, I did state that the condition of the ground was essential for the ricochet effect.

However, the US artillery did not fire 'into the ground' but into massed infantry in company columns (that means battalions were formed with companies one behind the other). Roundshot would take a terrible toll of troops formed like this, and at close range canister would be murderous. You might want to take a look at the three artillery books by BP Hughes for artillery effects on target.

As for the weight of an American 24-pounder, it would be much less than 'over four tons.' That is why I noted the weights of French naval and siege guns in the thread-the US had adopted the Gribeauval System in 1809 and while the adoption was only partial, more to the gun carriages and other artillery vehicles and equipment, I have seen no period 24-pounder that weighed over four tons. Again, take a look at Tousard.

Sincerely,
M
Again, take a look at the Encyclopedia of the War of 1812, Page 81: re: a US ".. 24 pounder long gun. The long guns were just that: cast-iron cannon ranging in length from about 8 to more than 10 feet and weighing upwards of 4 tons each..."
__________________
"Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 06 May 12, 20:48
johnbryan's Avatar
johnbryan johnbryan is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 16,535
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
As most of the engaged troops were issued with muskets and not rifles, your point is moot. Coffee's men, once again, were barely engaged and Beale's company was engaged in a close-quarter firefight where the range advantage of the rifle was nullified.

What is key, here, are the British accounts as they were on the receiving end of the American artillery fire as well as the eyewitness accounts of the condition of the British dead and wounded-they were mangled, the wounds being horrible, and those were not caused by rifle fire.

In short, again, you are wrong and the material that you've submitted doesn't say what you say it does.

Sincerely,
M
That may be your estimation, but I prefer to rely on the accounts of men of high military rank and stature, both British and American who were actually involved in the battle, rather than those of revisionist 20th and 21st century professors who may be trying to interject their own odd political agendas into what they want to be seen and viewed by future generations as proper, politically correct history. For the record, I spit on all politically correct history, because it is rank hypocrisy and lined with outright lies, designed to rob the men of valor who performed these great acts of their properly deserved historical rewards and rememberence at critical times in our nation's history.
__________________
"Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

Last edited by johnbryan; 06 May 12 at 21:03..
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 06 May 12, 21:25
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
'a US ".. 24 pounder long gun. The long guns were just that: cast-iron cannon ranging in length from about 8 to more than 10 feet and weighing upwards of 4 tons each..."'

US naval guns per the US Naval Department, which used 32- and 18-pounders, had 200 pounds of weight for every pound of shot. Therefore, a naval 32-pounder would weigh 6400 pounds and an 18-pounder would weigh 3600 pounds.

The US War Department declared that US siege guns would weigh 'a trifle more than 200 pounds to each pound of shot.' So, a 24-pounder would weigh a little more than 4800 pounds.

So, unless the 24-pounders were not up to these specifications, none of them would weigh anywhere close to over 4 tons (8000 pounds). Further, if the piece cannot be identified in the literature as to what the specifications were or the date and origin of manufacture, it is somewhat difficult to look up the weights.

This information was taken from pages 193-194 of the American Artillerist's Companion by Louis de Tousard, published in 1809.

If I'm not mistaken, the Encyclopedia of the War of 1812 is a somewhat recent publication, and is therefore at best a secondary work, although by definition encyclopedias can be considered a tertiary work.

You'll have to do better than that.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 06 May 12, 21:29
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
'That may be your estimation, but I prefer to rely on the accounts of men of high military rank and stature, both British and American who were actually involved in the battle, rather than those of revisionist 20th and 21st century professors who may be trying to interject their own odd political agendas into what they want to be seen and viewed by future generations as proper, politically correct history. For the record, I spit on all politically correct history, because it is rank hypocrisy and lined with outright lies, designed to rob the men of valor who performed these great acts of their properly deserved historical rewards and rememberence at critical times in our nation's history.'

I haven't estimated anything.

You haven't consulted the listed references, some of which are definitive, such as Reilly's work, on New Orleans and the US Army of the War of 1812, such as Quimby's.

None of the works I have listed are revisionist in nature.

By the way, what is your definition of 'revisionist.'

Who has lied in the references that I have listed? That's a rather sweeping statement that you have not shown or proven and is defamatory in nature. I suggest that you withdraw it.

No one is having their just 'historical rewards' taken from them. And none of the references you have shown has negated anything that I've posted. Seems to me that you have some actual reading and studying to do as your conclusions are wrong and your premise, if any, is ludicrous.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #131  
Old 06 May 12, 22:04
johnbryan's Avatar
johnbryan johnbryan is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 16,535
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
'a US ".. 24 pounder long gun. The long guns were just that: cast-iron cannon ranging in length from about 8 to more than 10 feet and weighing upwards of 4 tons each..."'

US naval guns per the US Naval Department, which used 32- and 18-pounders, had 200 pounds of weight for every pound of shot. Therefore, a naval 32-pounder would weigh 6400 pounds and an 18-pounder would weigh 3600 pounds.

The US War Department declared that US siege guns would weigh 'a trifle more than 200 pounds to each pound of shot.' So, a 24-pounder would weigh a little more than 4800 pounds.

So, unless the 24-pounders were not up to these specifications, none of them would weigh anywhere close to over 4 tons (8000 pounds). Further, if the piece cannot be identified in the literature as to what the specifications were or the date and origin of manufacture, it is somewhat difficult to look up the weights.

This information was taken from pages 193-194 of the American Artillerist's Companion by Louis de Tousard, published in 1809.

If I'm not mistaken, the Encyclopedia of the War of 1812 is a somewhat recent publication, and is therefore at best a secondary work, although by definition encyclopedias can be considered a tertiary work.

You'll have to do better than that.

Sincerely,
M
Look it up for yourself. That was a direct quote. Re: your sources. They are without spot or sin in your eyes only.
__________________
"Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 06 May 12, 22:46
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
A direct quote from whom and from what?

Have you read the sources that I've listed? They all have primary source material in them with the references listed.

Have you actually looked up artillery material in an artillery reference?

You haven't built a case for your premise. And the source material that you've posted and listed does not make a case for riflemen either. So, what exactly is your point in this exercise? That riflemen were as important as the artillery in inflicting casualties at New Orleans? If it is, then you haven't proven it with the mateial you've posted.

'They are without spot or sin in your eyes only.'

That was never said nor implied. However, you cannot critique them if you haven't read them.

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

Last edited by Massena; 06 May 12 at 22:54..
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 07 May 12, 05:36
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
To what 'politically correct' history are you referring in your post?

I haven't used or referred to any in my postings and the list I provided to you is anything but 'politically correct.'

Are you constructing another strawman argument to interpose in the thread because you cannot support your contention?

Or, are you maintaining that only the 'dirty shirts' could shoot, and in order for them to shoot well they have to be armed with a Kentucky or Pennsylvania rifle and live on the frontier?

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 07 May 12, 16:06
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 9,723
Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800] Massena gives and gets respect [800]
Here's an excerpt from the Introduction to Robin Reilly's book on New Orleans. You might want to take what he says about sourcing to heart before you start throwing around terms such as 'revisionism' and 'lies' which are inappropriate or improperly used, at best.

‘It has been said that the British consult history, and, when necessary, invent it. An examination of the accounts of the New Orleans campaign demonstrate that this custom is not exclusively British. The mythology of the campaign has grown to outweigh its history, and much of the invention is home grown. To the historian, memoirs written for publication must always be suspect, and the battle recollections of generals in old age are notoriously unreliable. It is, therefore, in the private diaries and letters of the period that the truth is most likely to be found. These are not innocent of personal or national prejudice, or of judgments unsoundly based on inadequate information or understanding, but they are generally free from the flatteries, rationalizations, and justifications imposed on a chronicler of contemporary events by his audience.’

‘There is no lack of memoirs of the campaign. So brilliant and so startling a victory, and so great the personal glory attached to having played a part in it, that memorialists jostled one another into print, competing forever the romantic or damning recollections like sinners at a disreputable public confession. While private journals and correspondence remained hidden, these writers laid a foundation of prejudice, misrepresentation, and invention which few historians have been able to resist as a basis for their own work. The uncritical use of the accounts given by Latour, Walker, and Gleig, in particular, has created a mythology of the campaign which is in the true sense romantic.’

‘Such memoirs are nevertheless valuable. They contain many accurate details of the movement of troops, the conditions under which the battles were fought, and documented incidents which lend authentic color to the narrative. It is when they deal with matters offecting individual motives and reputations, or report conversations held among enemy commanders, or recount their own invariably blameless deeds that their authors must be challenged.’

‘Of all the contemporary accounts so far discovered, the least questionable is the journal of the British artillery commander Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Dickson. Though later copied in manuscript for presentation to Lord Mulgrave, Master General of the Ordnance, it was never intended for publication, and its authenticity as a day-by-day record of events as they were known to him is beyond doubt. Dickson makes few judgments and fewer criticisms. Nor does he attempt to disguise failures, including his own, which led to defeat. Dickson’s is an uncompromisingly factual account of events, set down without elaboration and almost without comment. It is a bleak tribute to his integrity as a diarist that without his journal we would not know the extent of his own responsibility for defeat.’

‘George Robert Gleig’s diary, in its original manuscript, was manifestly truthful in intention. As a junior Britis regimental officer he had no part in command decisions and little understanding of the considerations which shaped them. His judgments are generally unsound, and parts of his account, presented as fact but based on hearsay or supposition, are inaccurate; but he provides a vivid and authentic picture of the conditions under which the men of Pakenham’s army lived, fought, and died. The various published editions of Gleig’s narrative are witness to a progressive submission to the weight of his literary pretensions and a desire, as a minister of the church, to draw moral conclusions.’

‘If Gleig’s narrative is to be accepted, in its early form, with reservation, Benson Earle Hill’s recollections must be regarded as dramatic entertainment. Buell appears to have taken him seriously and in his Life of Andrew Jackson writes of Hill as commander of the British artillery before New Orleans. Hill was a lieutenant and acting adjutant of an artillery force which included a lieutenant colonel, two majors, and five captains. He does not appear to have commanded a battery in action. His account is amusing but highly imaginative.’

‘No detailed journal of any British officer senior in rank to Dickson has survived. Both Keane and Lambert left official reports of their actions in command of the army before Pakenham’s arrival and after his death, but neither Sir Edward Pakenham nor Sir Alexander Cochrane, the two commanders who bore the chief responsibility, appears to have kept a diary of operations. Their motives, some of their actions, and the quality of their relationship during the campaign remain the subject of conjecture.’

‘Of the American source materials the most detailed is Arsene Lacarriere Latour’s Historical Memoir, which was rushed into print in 1816. Latour’s prejudice was so strong, and his desire to please so great, that all pretense of historical integrity drowned beneath the flood of malice, distortion, and congratulation. But as chief engineer officer to Jackson’s army, his expert and personal knowledge of events cannot be ignored. No significant part of his account may be accepted without collaboration, but no part of it should be discarded without authoritative evidence in refutation. There is much in Latour’s Historical Memoir which is both accurate and truthful, and historians of the campaign will continue to consult his work, but with caution.’

‘Alexander Walker’s Jackson and New Orleans, published forty years later, wears a mantle of respectability skillfully woven from the threads of his presence in New Orleans during the campaign. His work is both useful and informative, but his admiration for Jackson and his desire to present as complete a history for which he had less than half the required evidence led him into elaborate inventions. The mythology of the campaign fathered by Latour was fed, clothed, and groomed by Walker.’

‘An American journal of the campaign comparable to Dickson’s has yet to be found, but there is a wealth of shorter journals and private correspondence which provide reliable evidence of the sequence of events and records of personal experience. Andrew Jackson’s letters are particularly revealing of the man who, by extraordinary exertions, triumphed over the inertia of a people and the best endeavors of a superior army. ..As a British historian I make no claim to impartiality. If integrity of research demands that prejudice and preconception be cast aside to allow for the free assessment of evidence, involvement and partisanship are the inevitable consequences of honest research. In this connection it is the serious duty of the historian to differentiate between fact, so far as it may be ascertained from evidence, and opinion, which is a considered deduction. This division must be made clear.’

Sincerely,
M
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 08 May 12, 01:11
johnbryan's Avatar
johnbryan johnbryan is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 16,535
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+] johnbryan has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Thanks, but given the odd and extraordinary times we currently live in, when long celebrated, historical events and the actions of equally celebrated men of honor are called into question, I prefer to rely on first person, eye witness acounts of people who saw all these events in real time, rather than people whose great-grand parents weren't even born when these events occurred. I have already posted these eye witness, first person accounts by both British and American participents of the Battle of New Orleans and prefer to allow their laurels to shine forth, rather than rely on some college professor with a political axe to grind.

I had the advantage of having some elderly history professors in the early 80's who warned me about the upcoming "Young Turk Professors" who would try and rewrite US history to fit an as yet, undescribed Politically Correct agenda. When I look at our nation's pubilc school system's teachings with each passing year, I see that these "elderly professors" were spot on correct. There was a time whan George Washington was celebrated and revered as "The Father of Our Country", not because he fathered so many children out of wedlock, but because of his total dedication, endless and selfless commitment to the nurturing and the start of our fledgeling nation.

I had numerous arguments with my latter day professors who espoused the pc argument, including one former military officer who practically failed me in his class because I would not tow his left wing agenda. We had a class meeting with Leonard Woodcock, the former Ambassador to China, who greeted the class by announcing. "I bring you warm greetings from Chairman Mao and the People's Republic of China!" When I raised my had and was called upon, I asked him how he could possibly celebrate a leader whose actions made him one of the top mass murderers in all of history? Woodcock blinked a couple times before replying. "I never saw any evidence of such actions.." I replied. "Of course not. These actions took place 20 or 30 years before and dead men tell no tales, especially if they're buried deep.." Needless to say, the tv news people ignored all of what I said that day during the 6pm newscast.
__________________
"Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:59.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.