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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Napoleonic Era

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Napoleonic Era Discuss the many wars fought around the globe around the time of Napoleon. This forum is dedicated to the memory of Ben Weider.

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  #16  
Old 30 Apr 12, 17:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Are we to negotiate peace with our own general then citoyen?

Once agian these are the terms:

The original ultimatum by the Duke of Brunswick:




The additional terms presented recently:




Do these seem to you a reasonable base to discuss peace citoyen?

(...)
Indeed. For myself, I had to look again, and carefully, what uniform the "good" general is wearing!
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  #17  
Old 01 May 12, 09:47
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Post

Monsieurs,

Given the prevailing lethargy and apathy in this chamber, I have taken upon myself to present a political initative addressing the inmediate challenges France faces this year:

For your convenience and brevity sake, I will summarize it into a 9 point plan, more or less in a sequential order.

1. Ask for a truce with the foreign powers

2. Begin peace negotiations under said truce, to last through the summer. If a good settlement can be achieved, the better. If not, we win time to resume campaigning in autumn, after the harvest and hopefully get a better bargaining position through force of arms.

3. Appoint General Dumouriez commander in chief of all the French armies. Given the existing rivalry and tensions between the "whites" of the Feuillant party and the "reds" of the Hebertist party, a commander in chief who is not attached to either party can restore unity of command and order to the army and better coordinate operations. I think it's a choice the rest of the other parties would back, and both the Feuillants and Hebertists would find in their best interests a neutral commander.

Should the appointment of Dumouriez be rejected, and I am mindful of the possibility that the General himself may decline the offer, then I urge the Convention to not waste his talents and appoint him Inspector General of the Army in charge of recruitment and training of the reserve armies. I trust that not even the most vocal detractors of General Dumouriez would object to that.

4. Dismiss General Lafayette from command or place him in another command under strict supervision. I am not into the habit of relieving generals because they lose a battle. General Lafayette's recklessness and insubordination have caused a lot of trouble in the past, and it's military adventurism in Belgium not only has caused France a setback, but has opened the door to future reverses. For the summer duration we must go onto the defensive to minimize the risk of further defeats that can undermine our position during peace negotiations.

5. Partial demobilization of recruits for working in the agriculture of trade. I will not insist further in this point.

6. I propose again to issue a Law of Amnesty to quell internal dissent and allow us to present an united front to our enemies. The imprisoned royalist, clergy and of course the Girondins and other dissenters are set free without charges, in exchange for a general pardon for all the crimes commited during the revolution, September massacres and the Hebertist rule. I trust the Hebertists will accept this bargain.

7. I am aware that the Hebertists supporters will not wish that the former king of France is included in this amnesty, that would be to expect too much. But I trust the Hebertists will understand and agree to postpone the trial of citoyen Capet while peace negotiations are on, as the royal person and his family are an important bargaining chip in negotiations. I am sure the people of France first and foremost want peace and bread, not vengeance.

8. As a complementary measure to this amnesty, repeal the Law of Confiscation of Property of the Emigrés, to encourage the return of those fellow countrymen, defuse conspirations abroad and give substance to our peace posture. Of course, to placate the Hebertists, the return of property should be accompanied with a tax, those emigrés can return to France in safety and recover their property, but in exchange they should pay a special contribution to alleviate the financial crisis of the nation. Everybody has to share their part of the burden, so I believe this measure would be agreeable to all parties concerned, and ease the tensions.

9. Designate members of the Comitee of Public Safety inmediately and according to ability not partisan affiliation inmediately so they can start sorting out the affairs of France. The nation needs a functioning government, not this morass of inactivy the Convention has become.


Feel free to accept all, any, or none of the above, but if you choose to reject these measures, I hope for the sake of the people of France you better have a damn good alternative.

I also must repeat that this is my own personal initiative and not the official position of the Thermidor party. I encourage debate on these points, but France has had enough debate, what we need now is less talk and more action!
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Old 01 May 12, 22:48
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Finding a neutral commander, but appointing one who has repeatedly brought questionable offers of truce from a foreign power?

Dismiss a General for acting? Do we want a lethargic general in place? Do we want a general who has brought repeatedly offers of "truce" from the other side? No, no, and no.
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  #19  
Old 01 May 12, 23:10
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What other generals then fit the role?
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  #20  
Old 03 May 12, 06:17
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Monsieurs, first of all it seems some of you still harbor misguided prejudices against General Dumouriez. Foremost is that the general is just a messenger, the nature of the peace offers he conveys as part of his duties has nothing to do with his personal stance, as you would find if you bothered to ask him.

Fine, the government has elected to relieve from command General Dumouriez, however, he needs to be employed, France has need of his services. If the current command structure is deemed satisfactory, fine with that. It's even acceptable that General Lafayette remains in command, though is my view that he should be severely reprimanded.

General Dumouriez has been a loyal, competent soldier of France who counts with the respect and loyalty of his subordinates, save for Lafayette of course. Relieving him of command would be politically dangerous as it would undermine morale and cause unrest among the military that resent the political meddling in the conduct of the war, removing Dumouriez while keeping Lafayette at his post would be doubly dangerous as would cause resentment at the government for favoritism.

Since general Kellermann is already acting commander in the army of the Rhine, he looks like the natural choice for replacing Dumouriez. As in regard to the latter, gentlemen, bear in mind that the bulk of the French army is a militia of ill trained recruits. Previously we compensanted for that with raw numbers, but with the ineludible reduction of troop strengths due to the needs of agriculture and industry, the army is going to be weakened.

That is, unless some competent military officer is placed in charge of training and recruiting and institutes a rigorous training programme to form a reserve army to plug any breach of the fronts should Lafayette or Kellermann be unable to maintain the line in the event of an enemy offensive. A reserve of fewer troops, but well trained, motivated and led is more useful right now that a large poorly trained militia of conscripts.

As a workable compromise agreeable to all factions and the army, I therefore propose as the most pressing issue right now, to appoint General Dumouriez Inspector General of the armies and in command of the reserve army. On a personal note, this relieves him of the strenuous burden of command and places him closer to his family, I think the good general deserves this reward for his long service without respite and his achievements.
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Old 06 May 12, 23:12
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Whatever happened to all the others?
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Old 07 May 12, 07:06
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Old 07 May 12, 09:46
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Old 07 May 12, 16:46
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Citoyens, representatives of the French Republic!



What is National Convention thinking about? Is it sleeping, or does it refuse to act? When I left for the front I demanded that the measures be taken against the Girondins, I told you that they were traitors and now that you have the proof you don't act? Who are these politicians to afraid to act against both the Girondins and Capet? Have they been bribed by those aristocrats? When these traitors no longer recognize the authority of the National Convention there only remains the deploying of the national forces to return them to their obligations. That is the right of a revolutionary government of free Frenchmen. Because if we show weakness we'll just be stepped upon. How does one raise a child, by letting him run free NO! A child has parents to whom it must submit too. This is what you are deputies: the parents of a Revolution that still needs to grow...will you let it run free?
Act now if you want to prevent the assassination of a hundred unfortunate patriots because of your lack of initiative. If you are too afraid to act as a body then at least call to life the Committee of Public Safety and grant it full powers to do that which you do not want.

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Old 07 May 12, 20:10
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Sacre Bleu! He's at it again!
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Old 10 May 12, 03:39
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People of France

The spring planting in the countryside is now nearing completion. As a result, all military recruits, volunteers and conscripts are now hereby ordered to return to the army to continue their training and to provide reinforcements for the armies in the field.


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Old 10 May 12, 06:31
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Angry

Citoyen Skoblin! Are you out of your mind!??? Seems like I have to put again some sense into a street rabble rouser like you who doesn't have a clue about agriculture.

I thought it was obvious and didn't need to be stated that when, in order to avert famine, troops had to be withdrawn from the front to aid in the agriculture to arrive in their hometowns in time for spring planting.

Apparently, a half illiterate like you only read the first sentence and gave up reading the rest. That's just the beginning, there's a lot more to do. As any peasant will tell you, the spring and summer months are the busiest of the year, while the rest of time there's not much to do besides watching the crops grow.

It begins with the spring crops planting, then the harvest of vegetables and fruits as they mature at different times, and then is the main event, the grains crop wich is harvested in early to middle summer, depending of the part of the country, and last but not least the sowing of seeds in autumn for next year harvest.

I think a city dweller like you might have confused a lull between activities as the end of these tasks. You forgot about the wheat and barley. They need to be harvested, threshed, ground into flour, and baked into biscuits for the troops and fodder for the horses. If you call up the conscripts now, you will not only starve the civilians but the army will not get fed either!

I think you get the idea by now, I don't need to further insist in what an utter madness would be to send the recruits again to the front. No, recruits can't go to the front stay there for a month and go back home in time for the harvest and then return again to the front. Assuming a daily march rate of 20 miles on foot, it would take them 10 days to reach places 200 miles away from the front, then another 10 days to return. You would waste away the strength of the troops with those marches, under the heat of summer, and would not arrive to the fields in condition to till them, not would return in condition to bear a musket.

And the farther they have to travel south, the problem compounds. There's simply no way.

Your government already commited to reduce frontline troop strengths for the duration of the entire summer in order to serve agriculture and trade needs. It simply can't be undone! It was so blatantly obvious I can't believe I have to explain it all over again!

Summing it up, if you don't rescind this order inmediately, I submit my resignation, effective inmediately, from my post of commisary in charge of rations, I don't want to be responsible for this and will wash my hands.

Besides a failed harvest, this insane order will cause an uproar in the country. Men and their families had already counted with the men staying home for the coming months, such a premature call up will plunge the peasants into despair, and will cause mass desertion, and revolts in a countryside already in unrest. The government will lose control of many of the provinces still under control, and it will condemn the citizens of Paris and other cities to starvation as food supplies cease to arrive.

If you want to commit suicide, go ahead, but don't drag us with you! Rescind this order, now, and we will pretend to ignore you were drunk when you wrote it.
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Old 10 May 12, 07:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
Citoyen Skoblin! Are you out of your mind!??? Seems like I have to put again some sense into a street rabble rouser like you who doesn't have a clue about agriculture.

I thought it was obvious and didn't need to be stated that when, in order to avert famine, troops had to be withdrawn from the front to aid in the agriculture to arrive in their hometowns in time for spring planting.

Apparently, a half illiterate like you only read the first sentence and gave up reading the rest. That's just the beginning, there's a lot more to do. As any peasant will tell you, the spring and summer months are the busiest of the year, while the rest of time there's not much to do besides watching the crops grow.

It begins with the spring crops planting, then the harvest of vegetables and fruits as they mature at different times, and then is the main event, the grains crop wich is harvested in early to middle summer, depending of the part of the country, and last but not least the sowing of seeds in autumn for next year harvest.

I think a city dweller like you might have confused a lull between activities as the end of these tasks. You forgot about the wheat and barley. They need to be harvested, threshed, ground into flour, and baked into biscuits for the troops and fodder for the horses. If you call up the conscripts now, you will not only starve the civilians but the army will not get fed either!

I think you get the idea by now, I don't need to further insist in what an utter madness would be to send the recruits again to the front. No, recruits can't go to the front stay there for a month and go back home in time for the harvest and then return again to the front. Assuming a daily march rate of 20 miles on foot, it would take them 10 days to reach places 200 miles away from the front, then another 10 days to return. You would waste away the strength of the troops with those marches, under the heat of summer, and would not arrive to the fields in condition to till them, not would return in condition to bear a musket.

And the farther they have to travel south, the problem compounds. There's simply no way.

Your government already commited to reduce frontline troop strengths for the duration of the entire summer in order to serve agriculture and trade needs. It simply can't be undone! It was so blatantly obvious I can't believe I have to explain it all over again!

Summing it up, if you don't rescind this order inmediately, I submit my resignation, effective inmediately, from my post of commisary in charge of rations, I don't want to be responsible for this and will wash my hands.

Besides a failed harvest, this insane order will cause an uproar in the country. Men and their families had already counted with the men staying home for the coming months, such a premature call up will plunge the peasants into despair, and will cause mass desertion, and revolts in a countryside already in unrest. The government will lose control of many of the provinces still under control, and it will condemn the citizens of Paris and other cities to starvation as food supplies cease to arrive.

If you want to commit suicide, go ahead, but don't drag us with you! Rescind this order, now, and we will pretend to ignore you were drunk when you wrote it.
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  #30  
Old 10 May 12, 08:08
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Does the Chevalier de Harcourt enjoy opposing every single statement his colleagues make? His true sympathies and loyalties are beginning to seep through...

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