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Alternate Timelines The plausible "what if's" of military history.

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  #1621  
Old 30 Apr 12, 20:54
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You know, I just noticed with his lewy thingie that he mixed in W. Virginia. She mothballed at the end of the War on the West Coast of the US. Since she is incapable of transiting the Panama Canal (too wide as modified) she will have to make the horn or the cape to get to Europe. Given a steaming speed of about 12 knots that is going to take a while....

Then there is the issue of the "old" battleships being present at all. The US never mixed the newer "fast" battleships with the old ones in operations. The speed difference is too great. The old ones were relegated to amphibious bombardment, just as the British did, while the fast battleships operated with carriers or as a independent force against enemy naval units.
  #1622  
Old 30 Apr 12, 22:02
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I just noticed something i missed earlier and needs to be drawn to peoples attention and that is in Louisville Slugger the Soviet losses in what some 36 minutes amounted to:

Tanks: 739 (Roughly equivalent to 10 full Soviet Tank Regiments)
Casualties: 232,624 (Roughly equivalent to an entire Soviet Front)
Guns, Rockets & Mortars: 3,542 (Roughly equivalent to 5 Soviet Artillery Divisions)

All this carnage and it does not stop the Soviet one little bit, they over come catastrophic losses without blinking an eye. When in fact these catastrophic losses would lead to the halt of the Soviet Army for at least two months to restore and refit shattered units

This why Hairog has no credit, his lack of tactical and strategic situational awareness is glaring
  #1623  
Old 01 May 12, 00:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
I just noticed something i missed earlier and needs to be drawn to peoples attention and that is in Louisville Slugger the Soviet losses in what some 36 minutes amounted to:

Tanks: 739 (Roughly equivalent to 10 full Soviet Tank Regiments)
Casualties: 232,624 (Roughly equivalent to an entire Soviet Front)
Guns, Rockets & Mortars: 3,542 (Roughly equivalent to 5 Soviet Artillery Divisions)

All this carnage and it does not stop the Soviet one little bit, they over come catastrophic losses without blinking an eye. When in fact these catastrophic losses would lead to the halt of the Soviet Army for at least two months to restore and refit shattered units

This why Hairog has no credit, his lack of tactical and strategic situational awareness is glaring
Incredibly good shooting given that for battleships you are looking at a salvo a minute on average if they are really on top of things. That gives 3600 16" shells (out of the total amount fired by everything and 100 16" tubes) total, give or take spread over how many hundreds, or more likely thousands, of acres of land? That means less than one battleship shell per acre most likely for the whole shoot.
  #1624  
Old 01 May 12, 05:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post

What organization set up the networks in France and Benelux? Could it be the OSS, MI6 and SAS? All were ripe with Soviet spies IOTL. The OSS was crawling with them. Who trained all those agents?
Do you actually believe all the tripe you write? The SAS set up the French resistance and was ripe with communists

The resistance set itself up and was aided by SOE ..

Quote:
In contrast the Soviet spies preparing for a shooting war would already have the radios etc. they needed in country already. Some even supplied by the US and UK to their former Ally. Good idea for another post. Thanks.

Yes you can write how quickly the spys were captured after they start broadcasting and then how British Intelligence - the 99.8% of them who were loyal - gave them the old choice of telling all they know and start working for them, giving the Soviets disinformation; or swiftly, quietly and without appeal they would be hanged from the neck until dead

(or were they shot )
  #1625  
Old 01 May 12, 06:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
I just noticed something i missed earlier and needs to be drawn to peoples attention and that is in Louisville Slugger the Soviet losses in what some 36 minutes amounted to:

Tanks: 739 (Roughly equivalent to 10 full Soviet Tank Regiments)
Casualties: 232,624 (Roughly equivalent to an entire Soviet Front)
Guns, Rockets & Mortars: 3,542 (Roughly equivalent to 5 Soviet Artillery Divisions)

All this carnage and it does not stop the Soviet one little bit, they over come catastrophic losses without blinking an eye. When in fact these catastrophic losses would lead to the halt of the Soviet Army for at least two months to restore and refit shattered units

This why Hairog has no credit, his lack of tactical and strategic situational awareness is glaring
And what makes hairog one of those people that some only dream to wargame against. All of his advantages are wrapped up entirely in a handful of technology pieces and espionage. When it comes down to the actual important stuff of war, like operational strategy, tactics, and logistics (most importantly logistics), at work is the finesse of your average infantry private in a Soviet Rifle Corps.
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  #1626  
Old 01 May 12, 09:39
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Do you actually believe all the tripe you write? The SAS set up the French resistance and was ripe with communists
Wikipedia French Resistance

Quote:
Communists

After the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the outbreak of World War II in 1939, the French Communist Party (PCF) was declared a proscribed organisation by Édouard Daladier's government.[41][42] Many of its leaders were arrested and imprisoned or forced to go underground.[43] The PCF adopted an anti-war position under orders from the Comintern in Moscow,[44][45] which remained in place for the first year of the German occupation, mirroring the relationship between Germany and the USSR.[46] Conflicts erupted within the party, as many of its members opposed collaboration with the Germans while others toed the party line of neutrality as directed by Stalin in Moscow.[47] On Armistice Day in November 1940, communists were among the university students demonstrating against German repression by marching along the Champs-Élysées.[48] It was only when Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 that French communists began to actively organize a resistance effort.[49][50] They benefited from their experience in clandestine operations during the Spanish Civil War.[43]

On 21 August 1941, Colonel Pierre-Georges Fabien committed the first overt violent act of communist resistance by assassinating a German officer at the Barbès-Rochechouart station of the Paris Métro.[44][51] The attack, and others perpetrated in the following weeks, provoked fierce reprisals, culminating in the execution of 98 hostages after the Feldkommandant of Nantes was shot on 20 October.[52]

The military strength of the communists was still relatively feeble at the end of 1941, but the rapid growth of the Francs-Tireurs et Partisans (FTP), a radical armed movement, ensured that French communists regained their reputation as an effective anti-fascist force.[53] The FTP was open to non-communists, but it operated under communist control,[54] with its members predominantly engaged in acts of sabotage and guerrilla warfare.[55] By 1944, the FTP had an estimated strength of 100,000 men.[56]

Towards the end of the occupation, the PCF had reached the height of its influence, controlling large areas of France through the Résistance units under its command. Some in the PCF wanted to launch a revolution as the Germans withdrew from the country,[57] but the leadership, acting on Stalin's instructions, opposed this and adopted a policy of co-operating with the Allied powers and advocating a new Popular-Front government.[58]

Many well-known intellectual and artistic figures were attracted to the Communist party during the war, including the artist Pablo Picasso and the writer and philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre.[59] After the German invasion of the USSR, many Russian white émigrés, guided by Russian patriotic sentiment, would support the Soviet war effort. A number of them formed the Union of Russian Patriots, which adopted pro-Soviet positions and collaborated closely with the French Communist Party.
  #1627  
Old 01 May 12, 09:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
And what makes hairog one of those people that some only dream to wargame against. All of his advantages are wrapped up entirely in a handful of technology pieces and espionage. When it comes down to the actual important stuff of war, like operational strategy, tactics, and logistics (most importantly logistics), at work is the finesse of your average infantry private in a Soviet Rifle Corps.
Sun Tzu

"All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved."

"All war is based on deception."

"Hence that general is skilful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skilful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack."

I would love to wargame against you when the scenario allows for a real fog of war. Even a game like Time of Fury has enough variables to prove my point. Care to partake in a game? I tend to take gambles so you'll probably beat me ... but maybe not.
  #1628  
Old 01 May 12, 22:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
Sun Tzu

"All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved."

"All war is based on deception."

"Hence that general is skilful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skilful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack."

I would love to wargame against you when the scenario allows for a real fog of war. Even a game like Time of Fury has enough variables to prove my point. Care to partake in a game? I tend to take gambles so you'll probably beat me ... but maybe not.
Are you saying rather poorly too i might add, that the Allies don't have the ability to deceive as well?
  #1629  
Old 01 May 12, 22:40
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No, what he's saying, albeit somewhat clumsily, is that espionage and deception is of absolute primacy in war. That the Soviets are operating by a plan so brilliantly conceived that the West cannot know what it even needs to defend. Basically that his super-spies are far more important to ultimate victory than logistics............

Naturally he's forgetting (selectively or otherwise) to quote the rest of Sun Tzu....which includes notes of overextension resulting in defeat in detail (see Chapter 7 of Sun Tzu.....I've got two copies if you need me to mail you one). Deception is but one aspect of warfare. Deception at the cost of proper preparations is disastrous.

And that's what is continually missing. Proper preparations. Even Hitler was better prepared for warfare than the Soviets of this ATL. They rely on unproven technology, extremely rare technology, stockpiles which might or might not be there, espionage operations which might or might not work or be detected or countered, etc. Basically their entire war-plan revolves around a veritable crap-shoot of circumstances, each having to come into line perfectly and on time in order for their plan to work. Without an exigent circumstance (such as annihilation) to force such a plan into action, only a fool would purposefully execute such a plan, as failure of any single part would doom the entire operation to ultimate disaster without remedy or recourse.
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Last edited by TacCovert4; 01 May 12 at 23:03..
  #1630  
Old 01 May 12, 22:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
No, what he's saying, albeit somewhat clumsily, is that espionage and deception is of absolute primacy in war. That the Soviets are operating by a plan so brilliantly conceived that the West cannot know what it even needs to defend. Basically that his super-spies are far more important to ultimate victory than logistics............
Ahh i get it, Hairog is depending on the premis that his spies will effectively shut down the capacity of the West to respond, he is a bloody genius that Hairog.
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  #1631  
Old 03 May 12, 18:23
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Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
No, what he's saying, albeit somewhat clumsily, is that espionage and deception is of absolute primacy in war. That the Soviets are operating by a plan so brilliantly conceived that the West cannot know what it even needs to defend. Basically that his super-spies are far more important to ultimate victory than logistics............
I have amply given examples of the Soviets abilities at logistics in 1945-46. I have explained how they could have supplied their forces. You have either ignored this or don't accept the facts presented. That is not my problem. The facts and examples are from OTL and not made up. They are real as were the Soviets proven logistics abilities in this time period.

The combination of their proven logistics abilities and their proven spy work IOTL is what you can't seem to accept.

Quote:
Naturally he's forgetting (selectively or otherwise) to quote the rest of Sun Tzu....which includes notes of overextension resulting in defeat in detail (see Chapter 7 of Sun Tzu.....I've got two copies if you need me to mail you one). Deception is but one aspect of warfare. Deception at the cost of proper preparations is disastrous.
I have given more than enough information that proves that they were indeed prepared so this is a false statement that ignores the given facts. I suggest you try actually reading the story or if you claim you have try working on your reading comprehension before you make such statements again.


My own copy is just fine thank you.

Quote:
And that's what is continually missing. Proper preparations.
In fact you are missing that I have given ample evidence of their proper preparation. You just have chosen to ignore it. They are not one in the same.

Quote:
Even Hitler was better prepared for warfare than the Soviets of this ATL. They rely on unproven technology
The technology has been proven otherwise the attack would no have occured. They have been working on it since 1943 and as much as any weapons system can be proven before it hits combat in the 40s it was tested and proven. I have a number of posts that speak to this fact. It is not my fault that once again you did not read or understand what you read.

Quote:
, extremely rare technology, stockpiles which might or might not be there,
I have proven that the depots were there. 24 billion dollars worth. Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no question about that in OTL. Others have corroborated that fact.

Quote:
espionage operations which might or might not work or be detected or countered, etc.
It worked in OTL. So it could easily have worked in this alternate history.

Quote:
Basically their entire war-plan revolves around a veritable crap-shoot of circumstances, each having to come into line perfectly and on time in order for their plan to work.
Let's see if we can find some other examples where a nation or dictator has gone with even less...

Japan at Pearl Harbor, Singapore, Philippines.

Germany attacking France, the USSR. Declaring war on the US

Italy attacking in N.A. or Greece.

US at Midway, D-day, Inchon.


Quote:
Without an exigent circumstance (such as annihilation) to force such a plan into action, only a fool would purposefully execute such a plan, as failure of any single part would doom the entire operation to ultimate disaster without remedy or recourse.
Taking all of Germany and France in 1946 by surprise attack is a forgone conclusion by almost everyone but a few of you. The missiles were tested and ready to do the job asked. The VVS had upgraded their planes to meet the new demands awaiting them.

The attack on the nuclear bomb assembly teams was done in December before they attacked and was successful. If it wasn't they would not have attacked. This guaranteed 6 months of no nuke production combined with advanced notice of where any atomic bomb attacks would occur and a missile defense system that could prevent the bombers from getting through, the time was ripe.

This was his chance to use Western Europe as the battle ground that he knew was coming between capitalism and communism.
  #1632  
Old 04 May 12, 00:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
April 1st, 1946 13:00 hours
White House briefing room
Washington DC

Mr. President thank you for your time. I have just a few facts for you today. My purpose is to inform you of an imminent threat. We believe that our former ally, the USSR, is planning a sneak attack. We believe that the attack will start on or before May 15th, 1946.

We have discovered a spy ring in Los Alamos, NM and in other Manhattan Project facilities. We fear that certain facts have been passed on to the NKVD and from there to Stalin himself. These facts include

1. The actual number of functional Mark III atomic bombs.
2. The time it takes to assemble these bombs.
3. The exact weight and configuration of these bombs.
4. The number of assembly teams available and their locations and identities
5. The number of specially designed B29 bombers that can carry the devices.
6. The number and location of the pits needed to load the devices into the bomber.
7. How many hours of shelf life these devises have before they have to be disassembled and then reassembled again.

What this means is that Stalin may no longer fear the Atomic bomb in its present form. He now knows how vulnerable these devices and the bombers that deliver them are.

We also have reason to believe that he is in possession of information as to how many devices our own military believes is necessary to defeat the Soviet Army. The lowest estimate is in the order of 70 and all 70 must be 100 percent efficient. So in reality this means at least 140 devices minimum are needed.

We further believe that the basing of the B29s in West Germany was a grave error and gives Stalin the causa belli that he needs to convince his military and populous that we are going to attack first. This in turn leads to the conclusion that he must attack us first before we can use our atomic bombs. It appears to be a terrible misunderstanding that could cause WWIII.

In addition 19 out of the 22 member of the assembly teams have been attacked and 15 have been killed. Someone knew the identities and importance of those individuals. There "accidents" have crippled our Abomb program for at least 6 months.

What was that sir? Oh yes we can certainly fill you in on the 7 facts.

1. We only have 4 devices. Yes that is correct sir only 4. We had 6 but of course we used 2 on Japan.
2. It takes over 2 days to assemble the device.
3. The two different models weight 8,900 and 10,000 lbs each. Yes sir they are very large and that is why we need the pits to load them.
4. Currently we only have 2 trained assembly teams and as I told you earlier they have been put out of action for at least 6 months.
5. We have 12 Silver Plate B29s that are capable of loading the Mark III atomic bomb.
6. The two pits we have are in the Okinawa and England.
7. The devices have to be use within 48 hours of assembly.

Some other factors to consider that we believe the Soviets are aware of.

Troop strengths

We currently have 22 divisions in Europe. The British have 12 and the French 8. Almost all are at half strength. Even a relatively small force of 60 full strength Soviet divisions would cut through our lines like a hot knife through butter. Our air force is in better shape with 10,000 frontline aircraft worldwide.

Our demobilization effort was wildly successful. Five months after VJ Day 8.5 million Allied soldiers had been demobilized. As you will recall sir that when you tried to slow up the demobilization there were riots in some of our units. Our soldiers want to get home and go back to school on the GI Bill.

In contrast our estimates are that the Soviets have 66 full strength divisions that can attack at anytime. Within 30 days they can mobilize a total of 273 war strength divisions and by D-day + 60 they can deploy 270 divisions in Europe, 42 in the Middle East and 49 in the Far East. They have over 14,000 frontline aircraft in service currently.

Their satellites states have 84 of what we would consider 2nd line divisions with another 850 aircraft. More than enough to attack Greece and Italy.

In summary Mr. President we are up to our ears in alligators.

Yes sir I know its a lot to comprehend. Yes sir we'll talk again tomorrow so you have a chance to digest the report and its ramifications.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
May 2nd, 1946
05:42 hours
Advanced Signal Corps Station
West Germany

Sorry to wake you sir but we have multiple boggies coming in from the East.

Yes sir I agree it probably is the Soviets returning to their duty stations in East Germany from the May Day Parade in Moscow. I apologize for bothering you and under normal circumstances I won't have called. If you remember sir the general orders we received about the threat of a Soviet surprise attack sometime in May? Well sir the trouble is that I estimate that there are a whole hell of a lot of more returning aircraft than left.

I would estimate that there are over 10 times more. They don't have the landing fields for all those planes under normal circumstances.

Yes sir we checked the calibration on the SCR-584 and it is working just fine. No sir I haven't been drinking. Yes sir I will await further orders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
May 2nd, 1946
06:47 hours
US HQ
Bonn Germany

Sir all communications with West Berlin have been cut. It happened about 10 minutes ago.

We also have reports of a massive attack on our forward air bases all over West Germany. A number of bases have lost phone contact and we are not receiving any signals of any kind.

What was that sir?

Yes I estimate that 75% of our forward bases are either under attack or have been destroyed. No sir I wish to god this was a drill.

Yes sir it is my professional opinion that we are under a massive attack and that the Reds have started WWIII. No sir I have no idea why they have attacked nor what their objectives are.

Excuse me a second sir...It appears that we now have Red Army units that are now crossing the border under a heavy rolling artillery barrage. Yes sir the report says that our units are being destroyed where they stand. Sir we must pull back and fight a delaying action. We cannot stand up to this initial attack with the units we have.

Hell sir all of the units are at half strength how are we supposed to stop a Soviet S2 heavy tank with our pop guns. Most of our heavy artillery was destroy by those flying tanks that came screaming in at 250mph and spitting 23mm cannon shells and rockets. What sir... OK I got it…Sturmoviks… they are called Sturmoviks.

My question for you is where is our air cover? These freekin Stormo...whatever the hell they're called are all over us. You can't shoot them down from the ground. They're like flying tanks and they are killing our armor and any strong points we setup. It's like 1940 with us as the French. We need air support.

I don't even know if we can pull back without air cover. We need air cover and we need it now. We are dead meat with these things flying around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
May 2nd, 1946
03:00 Eastern Standard time
White House
Washington, D.C.

Sorry to wake you mister President but our worst fears have come true the Soviets have attacked all along the front in Western Germany.

Do you remember our briefing in April sir? Yes it is all starting to happen just as we feared. Our frontline troops are being overrun (god help them) and our air assets were caught on the ground. Yes sir just like Pearl. Pretty amazing how we keep getting our clock cleaned by surprise attacks. Luckily they have no long range bombers and fighters for any kind of strategic attack but they have a hell of a tactical and operational reach.

Our troops are getting slaughtered sir. I urgently suggest that we implement the plan that the Joint Chiefs were discussing for just this eventuality. It's pretty hard to brief you fully in just a few minutes sir. Well the short version is we fallback and do a fighting retreat. We need the order now to fallback sir and to try and save as many as possible.

Yes sir I know it will mean abandoning millions of our allies to the communists. I agree with you sir but staying and fighting will just get us killed at this point. We must fall back to in order to survive to fight another day. As you recall sir we only have 22 divisions and they are at half strength. The estimate is we are facing upwards of 100 divisions between the Soviets and their red allies.

Sir may I suggest that we don't have time for this now. I highly recommend that you order a general withdrawal towards France. A fighting withdrawal would sound better to the press. We need to do it now.

Thank you sir.

Major Grabowski get your ass in here. Issue a general order authorizing Plan Griddle and order a fighting retreat towards France for all allied forces now in Germany. We will make our first stand on the Rhine.

You made the right decision sir. It will save countless lives in the end. Yes sir I will have a briefing set up for 06:00.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
May 2nd, 1946
6:00 am
War Room
The White House
Washington, DC

Please sit down. General please brief us on the situation.
Thank you sir. It appears as though the Soviets have decided to fulfill their goal of a worldwide workers paradise staring with Europe. They have launched a full scale surprise attack all along the West German border. Their stated aim to the world is to rid Germany of the B29 base we have constructed stating that "It is an obvious provocation that must be eliminated". We have no reason to believe that they have any plan to stop their attack once the base has been overrun which at the rate they are advancing will be next week.

What forces we have left in Europe were at half strength. On paper we have 22 divisions and 500 frontline tactical combat aircraft. of those 22 divisions only 2 are anywhere near combat ready. In the initial attack we lost 75% of our aircraft and 10 divisions on the frontline are out of communication at this time.

The Soviets are attacking in army and corps strength. We believe that have over 60 full front line divisions facing us in Germany with up to 7,000 frontline fighters and ground attack aircraft.

We have reports of large gaps in our front lines with Soviet heavy armor pouring through. They appear to be after our supply depots. The situation is very similar to the opening days of the Battle of the Bulge. This time however we have to contend with an enemy who can match our tactical and operational level air power plane for plane. We do not and will not have air superiority for the immediate future and neither will they.

Our artillery ordinance and fire control are superior to theirs. They have the numbers however and have used it very effectively. As of last reports their massed artillery parks are able to overcome our fewer, more sophisticated artillery arm. As you all know it is a matter of combined arms. Kind of a Rock Paper Scissors situation and right now they have two trump cards which I will get to in a moment.

The reports are that casualties are very high. So far the Soviets are using conventional weapons and systems. No biological or chemical weapons have been reported or even suspected. No secret or unexpected weapons are in use. Our strategic weapons systems are still relatively good order in the US and England.

Our nuclear capabilities are on a need to know basis and those of you who have clearance will be briefed later.

In any event we will not be using Abombs in Europe at this time. I'm sure our allies would rather be "Red than Dead" as I've heard some appeasement advocates chant. We know that the Soviets have penetrated the inner workings of our nuclear weapons program and know our best kept secrets. Secrets that we cannot even tell you at this time. They know how many bombs we have and exactly what the circumstances are for their use.

Earlier I mentioned that they have two trump cards at this time that they have laid on the table. The first is their heavy tanks. Their model T44 and S3 are far superior to anything we have in Europe at this time. Our M4A2 76 are hopelessly out classed and we are in the middle of phasing out the tank destroyer doctrine which some call a "dismal failure". We so have some Pershing M26 Heavy/Medium tanks that have engaged their heavies with disastrous results. We were able to counter the German heavy tanks with a combination of tactical air power and artillery.

Currently against the Reds both of those options have been negated and we are having a tough time stopping their heavy armor. The Soviet T44 and S3 are virtually unstoppable at this point from any range outside of point blank. Luckily they are in limited numbers and appear to be not very reliable.

The main armor the Soviets are using is the T34 85. A veteran of many a battle in the previous war. It still outclasses most of our best armor in every category and it is being deployed in huge numbers.

Our only defense to Soviet armor presently in Europe is close in assault tactics using bazookas and high explosive charges place directly on the vehicle. Obviously this is not acceptable and we must find a solution to counter this very real advantage.

Our previous solutions including the use of massive tactical air power and artillery barrage are not available at this time due to lack of air superiority and counter battery fire on a massive scale by the Soviet guns.

Their other advantage at the moment is in their sheer overwhelming numbers. We are well matched in the air and out manned 3 to one on the ground. Their standard frontline fighters are equal to ours in both performance and numbers on a tactical basis...

What was that Congressman?

What I mean by tactical are the actions that are close to the battle field. Tactical weapons are things like, rifles, machine guns, bazookas, ground attack aircraft, tanks. Things that are used on a small scale are close in to the battlefield and short timelines. In the case of the fighters to make it simple I'll say within sight of the ground. Their fighters are as good as ours in the lower to medium altitudes. We do have an advantage higher up but I will talk about that later.

Does that answer your question for now Congressman? Yes sir, my pleasure.

We too have advantages but we cannot bring them to bear at the moment. We have bid our time and use them as soon as we can. Our naval power is unrivaled and they will never be able to match us in sheer numbers and quality. Unfortunately the Soviets have all the resources they need contained on their own landmass. They have no need for shipping. No need for a navy.

Our navy gives us the same advantages that the British Empire had over its rivals. Mobility and the ability to hit anywhere at anytime on any coast. We can hit and run or hit and stay at our leisure as long as we have control or even parity in the air space over the battlefield.

Our second advantage is mobility. Our ground forces are faster and more mobile in every category. If the situation calls for maneuver we have the advantage. As I said before our navy gives us the capability to hit them anywhere at anytime within 400 miles of a coast along with the logistics to support a full scale invasion such as the D-Day operation.

Our third advantage is our strategic bomber force. We pounded the Nazis into surrender and we intend to do the same to the Soviets. We just have to get ourselves into position to accomplish this objective. I'm sure the Soviets have learned their lessons from WWII and are preparing counter measures as we speak. Our B29s along with their escorts can fly higher than their current frontline fighters can reach and have a 1600 mile range with escorts. If we fly without escorts the range increases by 400 miles. Until they produce a counter to our bomber force they are at a great disadvantage. As I said earlier I am sure they are aware of the problem.

They are currently in possession of 3 B29s and have had them since 1944.....

Quiet down gentlemen please quiet down... Can we please have some kind of order... gentlemen .... gentlemen... please....

Yes Admiral ... they acquired them in the Far East Theater when our bombers were forced to land in Soviet territory during bombing raids on Japanese forces. So far they have come up with many excuses to delay their return. I’m sure the point is mute now.
If I may continue sir...thank you.

The point is that they have been studying the Super Fortress for almost a year and know it's capabilities and vulnerabilities.

They have very limited strategic air power assets. We have reason to believe that they have gathered a fair number of former German scientists, blue prints, designs and prototypes. They seem to be particularly interested in guided rockets.

Yes Senator...Yes I said guided rockets. The Germans were very advanced and tested numerous models. We can brief you offline later Senator.
We have been studying just this situation for the last 4 months and were about to publish our first draft. I would suggest that it is now our final draft.

Major Wilkes will now take over the briefing.
Good morning,
As General Knock said I am Major Wilkes.

The series of plans we will present today were developed to counter a Soviet invasion of Western Europe and The Middle East...Yes General?

... Yes sir we expect the Soviets to attack in the Middle East as well and soon for various reasons which will become apparent.

Yes sir. Thank you sir. May I continue? Thank you sir.

The best and most complete plan we have is a draft of Plan Griddle.

The Soviets hold all the cards right now and we project that they will overrun Western Europe with the exception of Brittan within 60 days given our force levels and logistics capabilities.....

If we can please have order in the room. Please can we all calm down and I will expand on our reasoning. Please sit down.......

Thank you. I know you have lots of questions. More than we have answers I'm sure. Gentlemen please calm down. This is the best and only plan we have currently and I strongly suggest that we hold off all the questions until after the briefing.

As I was saying, we foresee that the Red Army will be able to overrun all of Germany, France and the low countries in 60 days given our military capabilities. Our British friends are in agreement and are preparing their air defenses for another Battle of Britain. The situation is very similar to 1940 in the short run. We will be able to slow them down as will their own logistics challenges. Our plan is to add to those challenges but realistically we will not be able to stop them until we gain our strength back and form a coherent defensive line.

For now that is all we can tell you. Everything else would be conjecture. We have to take inventory of our losses and how fast we can reconstitute the greatest fighting force the world has ever seen... that is currently getting it's ass kicked.

Thank you Gentlemen that is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
Joint Chiefs of Staff Meeting
May 3rd, 1946
Washington, DC
07:30
Be seated gentlemen.

You few have been selected to hear the unvarnished truth about our current situation concerning our current nuclear capabilities. You will be found guilty of treason if any of this information leaves this room. Am I clear?!

Let's begin then.

We currently have 4 Abombs ready for assembly. Under normal circumstances they take 2 days to assemble and they have to be used within 48 hours or they have to be taken apart some components replaced and then put back together again.

The bombs are massive and weight over 10,000 lbs each. Only specially designed B29s can deliver them. The B29s have a range of 3200 miles. They can be escorted up to 2000 miles. We currently have 12 of them.

The Abomb is so big that it can only be loaded on the B29 by placing the bomb in a specially designed pit. Then the bomber has to be towed over this pit and the bomb lifted into the bomber. Currently we have two of these pits. One on Okinawa an one in England.

Hopefully this goes a long way in answering why we just don't bomb Moscow and a dozen or so cities and get this war over with.

1. We only have 4 bombs.
2. Not all of them will work as designed.
3. Not all of them will reach the target.
4. The Soviets have a very good air defense system at levels below 25,000 with a fighter force equal to ours.
5. They have had 2 years to study the B29.
6. It will take time to assemble a large enough raid to test their air defence system.
7. There are very few airfields in Europe designed to use the B29.
8. They have assassinated 80% of our Abomb assembly team members.
9. There was and still probably is a spy in the Abomb program and they have all the information I just told you.

Theoretically we could just fly higher than 32,000, feet the current operational height of their frontline fighters. As previously mentioned they have had access to 3 B29s for 2 years and have certainly tried and in their mind, found a solution to the treat of a nuclear attack. Otherwise they would be foolish to attack now.

We have to determine what that defense is and how to neutralize it.

Conservative estimate is that we will be ready to use our greatest weapons in no less than 6 months. In the meantime we are at an extreme disadvantage in conventional forces.

Basically we have to hang on and hope for the best until then.
I know this a large post to look at, but i went all the way back to the beginning and just to refresh myself to the beginning of this thread.

Is it just me or does the US President after being informed of a "Sneak Attack" by the JCS that the Soviets will attack sometime in mid May 1946 or earlier and yet as of the 1st May 1946 those on the front lines (especially local commanders) have yet to told of a Soviet Attack or at least give a warning if anything is out of the usual.

Something just does not sit right in the above quotes.
  #1633  
Old 04 May 12, 01:51
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First, as I demonstrated the US has up to 5 days on using a loaded bomb. The battery can be recharged twice before it is considered failed and has to be replaced.

Second, the US could simply strip the armored shell off their existing bombs reducing the weight to roughly 50% of that listed (yes, about 50% of the weight was a flak proof armored case).

The pit for loading is nothing. The reason it took so long to build one is the hard stand and taxiway to it had to be constructed. If the US was in a rush they could have a pit in a matter of days maybe even hours in the middle of an existing hardstand.

Earlier I mentioned that they have two trump cards at this time that they have laid on the table. The first is their heavy tanks. Their model T44 and S3 are far superior to anything we have in Europe at this time. Our M4A2 76 are hopelessly out classed and we are in the middle of phasing out the tank destroyer doctrine which some call a "dismal failure". We so have some Pershing M26 Heavy/Medium tanks that have engaged their heavies with disastrous results. We were able to counter the German heavy tanks with a combination of tactical air power and artillery.

Currently against the Reds both of those options have been negated and we are having a tough time stopping their heavy armor. The Soviet T44 and S3 are virtually unstoppable at this point from any range outside of point blank. Luckily they are in limited numbers and appear to be not very reliable.

Quote:
The main armor the Soviets are using is the T34 85. A veteran of many a battle in the previous war. It still outclasses most of our best armor in every category and it is being deployed in huge numbers.
This is purile crap. The T34/85 is no better than an M4A3E8 and in many ways inferior. If the US gives their crews HVAP then it is a really lopsided contest.
The T44 is only a slight improvement on the T34. It certainly isn't sufficently better to make a real difference. The T44/100 is still about a year away.
The US has the M26. They can also push their own super heavies like the T29 to 34 series into production. These tanks are far more capable than the IS 3. Oh, with HVAP the M26 can drill an IS 3.

Quote:
Our only defense to Soviet armor presently in Europe is close in assault tactics using bazookas and high explosive charges place directly on the vehicle. Obviously this is not acceptable and we must find a solution to counter this very real advantage.
What?! The US can also use 105mm with heavy wall HE, 155's with heavy wall HE, 57mm recoilless, 75mm recoilless, thermite grenades, the M9A1 rifle grenade... The above is nonsense.
A 105mm will smash a T34/85. That was proved in Korea very early on. If a 105mm will take out a Panther it will take out a T34.

Quote:
Our previous solutions including the use of massive tactical air power and artillery barrage are not available at this time due to lack of air superiority and counter battery fire on a massive scale by the Soviet guns.
Soviet artillery fire control is primative compared to what the US and Britain use. The US could easily win a counterbattery duel outnumbered by the Soviets. The Soviets except in their Breakthrough Artillery Corps lack the ability to perform counterbattery missions for the most part. Certainly at the division level they lack it.
The US could easily use various available radar and sound ranging equipment to find Soivet batteries. Once that happens they will let the FDC know where it is and a TOT barrage of just a couple of minutes would be sufficent to neutralize it.

As in Korea, the only hope the Soviets have of fighting US or British artillery is to overrun the batteries themselves.

Quote:
10 divisions on the frontline are out of communication at this time.
In less than 24 hours US 10 divisions in Southern Germany are no longer in contact of any sort with higher headquarters?! What a load of ...... that is.... What? Every radio in the division stopped working? Nobody has a field telephone? Given the sheer number of comm gear pieces in a US division this is ludicrious.
  #1634  
Old 04 May 12, 19:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
First, as I demonstrated the US has up to 5 days on using a loaded bomb. The battery can be recharged twice before it is considered failed and has to be replaced.

Second, the US could simply strip the armored shell off their existing bombs reducing the weight to roughly 50% of that listed (yes, about 50% of the weight was a flak proof armored case).

The pit for loading is nothing. The reason it took so long to build one is the hard stand and taxiway to it had to be constructed. If the US was in a rush they could have a pit in a matter of days maybe even hours in the middle of an existing hardstand.

Earlier I mentioned that they have two trump cards at this time that they have laid on the table. The first is their heavy tanks. Their model T44 and S3 are far superior to anything we have in Europe at this time. Our M4A2 76 are hopelessly out classed and we are in the middle of phasing out the tank destroyer doctrine which some call a "dismal failure". We so have some Pershing M26 Heavy/Medium tanks that have engaged their heavies with disastrous results. We were able to counter the German heavy tanks with a combination of tactical air power and artillery.

Currently against the Reds both of those options have been negated and we are having a tough time stopping their heavy armor. The Soviet T44 and S3 are virtually unstoppable at this point from any range outside of point blank. Luckily they are in limited numbers and appear to be not very reliable.



This is purile crap. The T34/85 is no better than an M4A3E8 and in many ways inferior. If the US gives their crews HVAP then it is a really lopsided contest.
The T44 is only a slight improvement on the T34. It certainly isn't sufficently better to make a real difference. The T44/100 is still about a year away.
The US has the M26. They can also push their own super heavies like the T29 to 34 series into production. These tanks are far more capable than the IS 3. Oh, with HVAP the M26 can drill an IS 3.



What?! The US can also use 105mm with heavy wall HE, 155's with heavy wall HE, 57mm recoilless, 75mm recoilless, thermite grenades, the M9A1 rifle grenade... The above is nonsense.
A 105mm will smash a T34/85. That was proved in Korea very early on. If a 105mm will take out a Panther it will take out a T34.



Soviet artillery fire control is primative compared to what the US and Britain use. The US could easily win a counterbattery duel outnumbered by the Soviets. The Soviets except in their Breakthrough Artillery Corps lack the ability to perform counterbattery missions for the most part. Certainly at the division level they lack it.
The US could easily use various available radar and sound ranging equipment to find Soivet batteries. Once that happens they will let the FDC know where it is and a TOT barrage of just a couple of minutes would be sufficent to neutralize it.

As in Korea, the only hope the Soviets have of fighting US or British artillery is to overrun the batteries themselves.



In less than 24 hours US 10 divisions in Southern Germany are no longer in contact of any sort with higher headquarters?! What a load of ...... that is.... What? Every radio in the division stopped working? Nobody has a field telephone? Given the sheer number of comm gear pieces in a US division this is ludicrious.
Here's the best quote of all from you...

Quote:
Yes, the Soviets could have successfully invaded Western Europe. They might even have taken most of it in 90 days. However, that is where agreement with you ends. At the end of that the Soviets would be facing a disasterous occupation, crippling logistical problems, and, of course, the West re-mobilizing for a counter attack that will come not just from Western Europe but China, the Far East, over the Arctic, from the Baltic, from the Mediterrainian, and from the Middle East.
The colors and emphasis are mine. After much debate you have finally agreed that the Soviets could do what I have suggested and now you are trying to back out. Why? Because you have one purpose as does Roddoss and others.

That is to be contrary at every step. This is not a discussion anymore this is a handful of contrarians continuously arguing over things that have been discussed and dealt with. Again why? Because I have demonstrated that they have been wrong. I have embarrassed them by catching them in mistakes they can't even admit and they're pissed at me.

Sorry but this is your problem not mine and you are the ones who keep pursuing this. Everything I have proposed meets the criteria for alternate history. I have provided example after example of things you have deemed impossible. Well they are not as I have amply demonstrated.
  #1635  
Old 04 May 12, 19:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post

The colors and emphasis are mine. After much debate you have finally agreed that the Soviets could do what I have suggested and now you are trying to back out. Why? Because you have one purpose as does Roddoss and others.

That is to be contrary at every step. This is not a discussion anymore this is a handful of contrarians continuously arguing over things that have been discussed and dealt with. Again why? Because I have demonstrated that they have been wrong. I have embarrassed them by catching them in mistakes they can't even admit and they're pissed at me.

Sorry but this is your problem not mine and you are the ones who keep pursuing this. Everything I have proposed meets the criteria for alternate history. I have provided example after example of things you have deemed impossible. Well they are not as I have amply demonstrated.
Because you emphsize the wrong part of that quote. The second part is what is important. They take most of Western Europe and then are essentially a crippled force for months.

You have then taking Western Europe and then, as if they had been on a sunday drive, immediately being ready for a massive air offensive against Britain within a few weeks, maybe even days of doing that.

What you do is ignore completely logistics, engineering, and the command and control aspects of this scenario. Most of those Soviet divisions on reaching France will be severely depleted in equipment and manpower. They will be in bad need of reorganization and rest.

The air units won't be able to move to forward bases and mount any sustained operations for months. It will take time to move the fuel, ammunition, replacement parts, and support crews into place. Soviet engineering in 1946 is almost entirely done with hand tools. Even repairing a damaged runway will take days to weeks depending on the damage.

No, captured whatever won't change that. That is and has been the problem with your scenario.

You are now at a point where the Soviets, having taken France and been in occupation just a mere few weeks have somehow moved hundreds of their SAM's with all the supporting infrastructure and manpower, and thousands of planes, with all the supporting infrastructure and manpower into position to start an offensive against England.
Germany, with a much better level of surviving infrastructure, an army that was far more intact, and using a fraction of the aircraft took from June to September 1940 to really get the BoB going. Four months to do a fraction of what you propose with better resources.

Germany also didn't have a rear that was in chaos. The Russians do. There will be widespread resistance to their occupation. There will be widespread sabotage. The people doing it will in many cases be the same ones that were fighting the Germans less than a year previously. The rail net will be in ruins.

Yet, over all this the Soviets move along as if they were on peacetime maneuvers.

Your problem is that you only hear what you want to hear and dismiss everything that doesn't fit your crummy scenario as nonsense or you wave it away with fictious "experts" and sources you never name. Where you do bother to trot out a source it is always a singular one that is cherry picked to give you the result you want. Conspiricy theorists do that sort of nonsense. That is why sane, normal people dismiss them as cretins.

In a latest for instance, you mention the Korean war and ace ratios. Here, the Soviets won't be going up against the British and US in MiG 15's. They will have lousy first generation lash ups using WW 2 German jet engine technology against second and third generation British and US jets.
In piston engined aircraft they only have parity when defending. They lack a good long range fighter. All they have are modified short range ones. They have next to zero high altitude capacity, no credible nightfighter force.

You dodge the questions about your missile systems regularly rather than putting on the table how you claim they work. This is probably because you fully recognize the instant that you do explain their guidance and targetting systems people here will tear you apart on a wide range of technical issues over it.

So, to sum up. Yes, the Soviets probably could have overrun most or all of Western Europe in 90 or so days. They'd be through at that point and the Allies would then proceed to kick their scrawny @$$es off the planet in a sustained global conflict coming at them from every direction. There wouldn't need to be a D-Day into France anytime soon. The Allies could attack from the Pacific, Arctic, Middle East, Mediterrainian, etc. The Soviets now have literally tens of thousands of miles of border to defend. They don't have the manpower or resources to do it. They would be finished.
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