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Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

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  #61  
Old 30 Apr 12, 03:30
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Cook offs are a risk but I have never seen one. I am sure Golian can say more since the Galil is Israel and he would know more about it.
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  #62  
Old 30 Apr 12, 03:50
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Whether or not the USMC should have adopted the IAR or not seems moot at this point; they have adopted it. Now, how to employ the IAR and what to do with the SAW for best effect?

I read an article that said they are keeping nine M-249s in the company arms room. So enough to have one per squad. They could keep the fire teams at four men each and have a SAW in one of the teams with an IAR in the other two, of course. But I think it would make more sense to make the IAR equipped fire teams five man teams and have a two man team with a SAW. That would only be a slight shift in the way the USMC rifle squad has done business since 1945. It would also give two fire teams an extra man each for clearing.
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  #63  
Old 30 Apr 12, 04:00
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Frankly, the only real way to answer the question of how well the IAR will work compared to the M249 is in the heat of battle.

Last edited by Ogukuo72; 30 Apr 12 at 04:07..
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  #64  
Old 30 Apr 12, 04:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
Cook offs are a risk but I have never seen one. I am sure Golian can say more since the Galil is Israel and he would know more about it.
The Galil is completely out of service here, even in the reserve units (on paper anyways), but I never heard of an attempt to turn it into an IAR.

OTOH during the 60's, when the FAL was the standard issue rifle, the IDF had 2 variants- SLR (semi auto only) and IAR/SAW, essentially the same rifle with 2 differences- full auto selector and a heavier barrel (possibly also bipods).
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  #65  
Old 30 Apr 12, 04:30
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A full auto FAL would not easy to control.


Did the IDF ever use the 50 round magazine for the Galil or only the 35 round. I really do not know if the IAR R4 has a heavier barrel or not.



I don't like breaking up the SAW team up to just 2 people. I would keep it 4 but change it up.
Leader (M4 and 203)
MG32 gunner (M4 and MG32)
SAW gunner
7.62mm DMR or radio man/FAC
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  #66  
Old 30 Apr 12, 04:47
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Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
A full auto FAL would not easy to control.
It did wonders in the right hands, all in perspective of the time. An average squad was 1-2 Uzi and the rest SLR FN FAL. MG's where only available at the battalion level (MG platoon in the heavy weapons company). The MAG's (M-240's) were starting to see service as a SAW (!) as a test in '67 and went into circulation only in '69.

So, all things considered- it's not the worst case scenario.
Quote:
Did the IDF ever use the 50 round magazine for the Galil or only the 35 round.
Apparently the 50's mag did see service, but very limited, here's an example:
http://www.fresh.co.il/vBulletin/sho...59#post3616037
Quote:
MG32 gunner (M4 and MG32)
Yeah, not the best idea ever.
I had the displeasure of carrying a MAG (M-240) with an M-4 several times...that had more downsides than pluses.
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  #67  
Old 30 Apr 12, 05:16
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That 50 round mag looks really really long. It must have been quite bothersome to wield a weapon with that magazine inserted.

Frankly, I'm not sure that it would have been worth the while to have a high-capacity magazine like the Ultimax 100's 100 round drum or this type of 50-round magazine. Their awkwardness seems to make it not worth the while. I can certainly attest to the cumbersome nature of the Ultimax 100's drum magazine.

The only high-capacity magazine that I like is the Surefire's 60 round magazine.
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  #68  
Old 30 Apr 12, 05:42
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The problem is that a MGL is not like a machine gun. It can not be used in self defense. So the MGL gunner would need a another weapon. Maybe a SMG could work better though.


The 50 round mag is long but it let's you turn your assault rifle in to IAR. Of course the chance of a cook of is there and with more rounds in the mag it will be even worse if it happens. From what I under stand talking to friends in MRS(infantry) there is one guy who is designated to fire on full auto when the LMG reload's. This way you keep a contestant full auto suppressing fire on the enemy.
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  #69  
Old 30 Apr 12, 05:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
The problem is that a MGL is not like a machine gun. It can not be used in self defense. So the MGL gunner would need a another weapon. Maybe a SMG could work better though.
Sorry, I thought the MG32 refers to a variant of the MG-3, didn't realize you meant the MGL.
Quote:
The 50 round mag is long but it let's you turn your assault rifle in to IAR. Of course the chance of a cook of is there and with more rounds in the mag it will be even worse if it happens. From what I under stand talking to friends in MRS(infantry) there is one guy who is designated to fire on full auto when the LMG reload's. This way you keep a contestant full auto suppressing fire on the enemy.
Try shooting it from a prone position...

Magazine with a larger capacity (for an adapted weapon) can be a good thing, but most likely in the shape of a drum, not a very long mag.
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  #70  
Old 30 Apr 12, 07:11
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Magazine with a larger capacity (for an adapted weapon) can be a good thing, but most likely in the shape of a drum, not a very long mag.
I think that one solution they came up with was to have a magazine with a double-stack to go in the mag-well, expanding to four wide in the lower portion....thereby keeping the magazine shorter while increasing capacity.

However it's far more prone to jamming issues or feed issues than a standard double-stacking mag.
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  #71  
Old 30 Apr 12, 08:58
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All extended magazines have problems, that is why they not standard issued. And yes the 50 round is to long to go pron effectively. I was thinking more along the lines of a drum mag on a M16 with a heavy barrel and bipod for a IAR instead of a brand new M27 IAR.


I came up with this for a IAR based squad

13 people.

squad leader. x1

x1 support team

Team leader
MG 32 MGL gunner
SAW gunner
Mission depended

x2 fire teams

team leader
M203 gunner
IAR
rifleman or DMR M16
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  #72  
Old 30 Apr 12, 11:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
I think that one solution they came up with was to have a magazine with a double-stack to go in the mag-well, expanding to four wide in the lower portion....thereby keeping the magazine shorter while increasing capacity.

However it's far more prone to jamming issues or feed issues than a standard double-stacking mag.
Yep. That's the Surefire 60 round mag design. I believe they use plastic spacers (plastic inserts shaped like a cartridge) to push rounds out of the twin double-stacks into a single double-stack. Not sure about its reliability.
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Old 30 Apr 12, 14:35
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I don't like breaking up the SAW team up to just 2 people. I would keep it 4 but change it up.
Point taken, if the team is operating like a third fire team. But think of it as an LMG team. It's likely to stay under the squad leader's direct control most of the time. So in practical application you have three, five and five instead of one, two, five and five.

And, as stated, there's some advantage in giving the other teams an extra man for clearing.
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Old 30 Apr 12, 16:15
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I would rather a three or four man fire team for the SAW. One of the guys can be the Assistant Squad Leader or a Grenadier. Someone has to carry ammo.

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Old 30 Apr 12, 16:52
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I would rather a three or four man fire team for the SAW.
There are advantages to three men for machine gun teams. But it's not a necessity.

Quote:
One of the guys can be the Assistant Squad Leader or a Grenadier.
In a defense it's good to have a grenadier position next to a machine gun position because the grenadier covers the gunner's dead space during grazing fire. In the offense the gunner is engaging point targets so it's just as well to have the grenadiers manuevering with assault teams.

Quote:
Someone has to carry ammo.
We seldom had a dedicated ammo bearer when I was an M-60 gunner. The TOE called for it but since a unit is usually a few men short it was seen as a convenience. We filled the fire teams before assigning an ammo bearer to the gun teams. You may have to spread the ammo out among the rest of the platoon if your unit is short a few men. There's pros and cons to doing it that way.
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