Where was China during the Vietnam war?

[sgnsteve]

Ken, you made this statement. "I'm reluctant to agree with you on Vietnam becoming a Chinese province "soon"; but do see it in the future". What is your basis for this? The rise of the Chinese economy perhaps? Just wondering. Thanks

[KEN JENSEN]

Originally Posted by sgnsteve

Ken, you made this statement. "I'm reluctant to agree with you on Vietnam becoming a Chinese province "soon"; but do see it in the future". What is your basis for this? The rise of the Chinese economy perhaps? Just wondering. Thanks

As to my "soon" thoughts....
Both China and Vietnam are still in their infant years struggling with some trial forms of very small alternate governing approaches, and of course, "capitalistic" adventures. Their "global" import/export activities, combined with much of their educated population's access to the internet, sort of settles down the "war mongers" of yesteryear. China really has no need for foreign "land grabs"; they just "buy" countries and almost any "global" resource they wish to have.

As to the "future"....
Tough to visualize. But due to geographic location of Vietnam, I can see China governing most of S.E. Asia in perhaps 100yrs; similar to something like the European Union.

The above, of course, is just being "pulled out of my arz"; so to speak.

[sgnsteve]

Thanks Ken, a few of my random thoughts on the situation. I agree that China has the resources to buy whoever/whatever is needed to enhance their economic situation. The Chinese have run aground in some areas though as of late, Australia's raw materials market new protectionist laws being one of the latest setbacks for example.The recent US 7th Fleet joint training exercises with the VN Navy in Denang and buildup of Vietnam's naval assets bring a different and changing situation that China so far has been pretty mellow about. The American presence in Vietnam's economic and social situation is another indicator that the US will keep its influence in the area to balance the overwhelming political weight of China locally. The deputed offshore islands have coalesced an interesting union between the party's involved that may change the balance of power additionally. An interesting occurrence as of late is the democratization of Myanmar and the showering of approval (and economic support) by the worlds powers, I wonder what the leaders in Hanoi are thinking as they see the doors opening wide to accept this new state. And finally there are the Vietnamese themselves who are, in my opinion, some of the most ethnocentric people around. The Chinese top their list of disliked, mistrusted and sneaky nations. Hell, in Vung Tau the northerners who populated the town after it was nearly deserted after 1975 are still known as carpetba&&ers. The Vietnamese have long memories. As for a 100 years, maybe the Mayans are right. lol.

[MontanaKid]

Originally Posted by sgnsteve

Thanks Ken, a few of my random thoughts on the situation. I agree that China has the resources to buy whoever/whatever is needed to enhance their economic situation. The Chinese have run aground in some areas though as of late, Australia's raw materials market new protectionist laws being one of the latest setbacks for example.The recent US 7th Fleet joint training exercises with the VN Navy in Denang and buildup of Vietnam's naval assets bring a different and changing situation that China so far has been pretty mellow about. The American presence in Vietnam's economic and social situation is another indicator that the US will keep its influence in the area to balance the overwhelming political weight of China locally. The deputed offshore islands have coalesced an interesting union between the party's involved that may change the balance of power additionally. An interesting occurrence as of late is the democratization of Myanmar and the showering of approval (and economic support) by the worlds powers, I wonder what the leaders in Hanoi are thinking as they see the doors opening wide to accept this new state. And finally there are the Vietnamese themselves who are, in my opinion, some of the most ethnocentric people around. The Chinese top their list of disliked, mistrusted and sneaky nations. Hell, in Vung Tau the northerners who populated the town after it was nearly deserted after 1975 are still known as carpetba&&ers. The Vietnamese have long memories. As for a 100 years, maybe the Mayans are right. lol.

A group of owls is called a Parliament, hmmmm.

[jgarden]

The Sino-Vietnamese War (Vietnamese:Chiến tranh biên giới Việt - Trung 1979), also referred to as the Third Indochina War, was a brief but bloody border war fought between the People's Republic of China and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam, from February 17, 1979, to March 16, 1979. The Chinese launched the offensive in response to Vietnam's 1978 invasion and occupation of Cambodia, which ended the reign of the PRC-backed Khmer Rouge.

The Chinese invaded northern Vietnam and captured some of the northernmost cities in Vietnam. On March 6, China declared that the gate to Hanoi was open and that their punitive mission had been achieved and retreated back into China. Both China and Vietnam claimed victory in the last of the Indochina Wars of the 20th century; as Vietnamese troops remained in Cambodia until 1989 it can be said that the PRC failed to achieve the goal of dissuading Vietnam from involvement in Cambodia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

Estimates of Chinese casualties for this 1 month border war in 1979 include 26,000 dead, 37,000 wounded and 420 tanks destroyed.

Vietnamese casualties have been placed at nearly 10,000 dead.

American involvement in Vietnam appeared to have totally ignored the longstanding tensions that have existed between China and the Vietnamese people.

[KEN JENSEN]

Originally Posted by jgarden

Estimates of Chinese casualties for this 1 month border war in 1979 include 26,000 dead, 37,000 wounded and 420 tanks destroyed.

Vietnamese casualties have been placed at nearly 10,000 dead.

It seems you are mixing "wars". The "Vietnam War" that involved the Americans was the Second Indochinese War, which "officially" started in 1964 and ended in 1973.

Originally Posted by jgarden

American involvement in Vietnam appeared to have totally ignored the longstanding tensions that have existed between China and the Vietnamese people.

I do believe your above statement is incorrect. The Americans (U.S.) were concerned about the Chinese during and after WW II. U.S. concerns during the early 1950's is what brought the U.S. into the Second Indochinese War. Even today the Chinese are not ignored.

[lirelou]

Ken, I believe he is referring to the view, popular in post-Vietnam anti-war circles, that the U.S. was totally ignorant of Vietnam's history of struggle against the Chinese to maintain their independence. The implication is that had the Americans understood this Vietnamese hostility to China, they would have understood that the Vietnamese communists were never going to be subordinate to any Chinese. Ergo we would never have become involved in the Vietnam War.

The fact of the matter is that the Vietnamese have fought far more wars among themselves than they ever did with China, and even when Vietnam was independent, they were careful enough to keep up the tribute payments to China until the French permanently ended that in 1886 or so.

Historically, U.S. interest in East Asia has been centered upon China. From 1786 until 1937, our primary interest was free trade. From 1937 on, our interest was to keep China in the War against Japan by arming and supplying the Nationalist Armies. Hell, the only reason the OSS ever got involved with Ho Chi Minh was because plans were on the books to land an expeditionary force in Southern China in preparation for the eventual invasion of Japan, and the OSS was looking for means to impede IJA reinforcements moving overland into South China through Laos and Vietnam. Of course, the bomb made that unnecessary. (See: The OSS and Ho Chi Minh, Allies in the War against Japan, by Dixee Bartholomew-Feis)

With the Chinese Communists October 1949 victory over Chiang Kai-shek in their civil war, followed by their backing Kim Il-sung's invasion of South Korea, followed by outright intervention once we had sent the Norks fleeing north, there was no way the U.S. was going to ignore Communist Chinese support to the Viet Minh, especially in light of Chinese threats to Taiwan, Quemoy, and Matsu; Malaya, and the Philippines.

[KEN JENSEN]

Originally Posted by lirelou

Ken, I believe he is referring to the view, popular in post-Vietnam anti-war circles, that the U.S. was totally ignorant of Vietnam's history of struggle against the Chinese to maintain their independence. The implication is that had the Americans understood this Vietnamese hostility to China, they would have understood that the Vietnamese communists were never going to be subordinate to any Chinese. Ergo we would never have become involved in the Vietnam War.

Of course, I do not accept what he "thinks"; that is a "point" I was attempting to make. You and I both know the U.S. knew about Vietnam's history with the Chinese. The U.S. only used Vietnam as the "battlefield" to fight Communist aggression by both China and the U.S.S.R.

... there was no way the U.S. was going to ignore Communist Chinese support to the Viet Minh, especially in light of Chinese threats to Taiwan, Quemoy, and Matsu; Malaya, and the Philippines.

"O" my; now we are getting into the fringes of the Domino Theory, which I wholeheartedly supported and put my life on the line to stop the spread of Communism; and I didn't care if it was in Europe, S.E. Asia, or anywhere else in the world

[jgarden]

Originally Posted by KEN JENSEN

It seems you are mixing "wars". The "Vietnam War" that involved the Americans was the Second Indochinese War, which "officially" started in 1964 and ended in 1973.

The border war (February 17, 1979, to March 16, 1979) between China and Vietnam came 6 years after the "Second Indochinese War." The Chinese crossed Vietnam's northern border as a result of that country's invasion/occupation of Cambodia in 1978. The Vietnamese defeated the Khmer Rouge, a regime that the Chinese were supporting.

I do believe your above statement is incorrect. The Americans (U.S.) were concerned about the Chinese during and after WW II. U.S. concerns during the early 1950's is what brought the U.S. into the Second Indochinese War. Even today the Chinese are not ignored.

After Korea, many Americans felt history would repeat itself and that the Chinese would commit troops in support of the North Vietnamese.

The fact that North Vietnam never requested Chinese troops, and that it dared to occupy the Khmer Rouge ruled Cambodia (a client state of China) in 1978, indicates that the Vietnamese Communists were fiercely independent of China Communists - even if it led to war.

Vietnam's wars with the French and the Americans, followed by the Khmer Rouge and China, appear to be based on nationalism and self-determination, rather than just an extension of Soviet-Chinese foreign policy.

[Trailboss49]

Originally Posted by KEN JENSEN

U.S. concerns during the early 1950's is what brought the U.S. into the Second Indochinese War. Even today the Chinese are not ignored.

Many people are not aware of it but for a short time US had military forces fighting with Chang Kai Chec against Mao.

How am I personally aware of this? Discussed it at length with an American veteran of the conflict. He actually deserted the US Army when ordered out so he could continue to fight the communists. He was with the American agent John Birch when he was assasinated by Mao's troops. He was taken prisoner and released after the Long March proved successful.

[lirelou]

TB,m I find your source's time line confusing. Mao's long march took place between 16 October 1934 and 22 October 1935. LT John Birch was killed on 25 August 1945, while leading a party of surrendered Japanese, Nationalist Chinese, and Koreans to a POW camp in Chinese Communist territory where Allied prisoners were being held.

The USMC did land troops in China to help disarm surrendered Japanese and restore order. They were in Northern China from 1945-49. While there were clashes between U.S. and CCP forces, defeating the Communists was not U.S. policy. as the link below states:

http://www.scuttlebuttsmallchow.com/northchina.html

The scope of Marine rail guard activities increased rapidly after the initial deployment of the 1st Division. First, intermediate stations between the principal rail centers were occupied, then outposts were established at strategic points, and, finally, vital coal and supply trains were guarded. Chinese track repair gangs, fair game for the guerrillas, needed protection if the railroad was to be kept operating. The presence of CNA forces may have made the Eighth Route Army more wary, but it did not prevent frequent Communist incursions into areas where destruction of roadbed and bridges would be most damaging. The III Corps' first month in China revealed the pattern of future months which stretched into years. Set down in the midst of a fratricidal war with ambiguous instructions to abstain from active participation while "cooperating" with Central Government forces,<8> the Marines walked a tightrope to maintain the illusion of friendly neutrality.

Another quote from the 6th USMC Division commander:

As to the preparations for CNA troops to enter Tsingtao, such matters were entirely beyond the control of 6th Division Headquarters, however, Shepherd stated his own credo in regard to the civil war:

On my own behalf, however, I can say without reservation that it is my determination that the sixth Marine Division will in no way assist any Chinese group in conflict against another.<12>

Also, the OSS and later CIA were in North China at the same time, but none of them were ordered to "desert" to fight the communists. The future General Singlaub of MSCVSOG kept his military status, as did several others who became early SF pioneers.

[Ricthofen]

To the best of my knowledge they did threaten intervention along with the USSR, which was part of the political factor that led to the US withdrawal.

[miska-iloveyou]

Facing 600.000 Chinese servicemen (around 300.000 cross the border), 100.000 Vietnamese local militia along with only two regular divisions did a very good job within 30 days of intense fighting.

Immediately after the crack divisions airlifted from Cambodia onto Bac Giang province beneath the front line for a massive counter-offensive, the Chinese declared the operation of "victory" and withdrew.

It was:
South killed Polpot's (Nam diệt Pôn Pốt)
North fought Deng-Mao (Bắc chiến Đặng Mao)

[MontanaKid]

Originally Posted by Ricthofen

To the best of my knowledge they did threaten intervention along with the USSR, which was part of the political factor that led to the US withdrawal.

The best of your knowledge is lacking a foundation in fact.

[Ricthofen]

Originally Posted by MontanaKid

The best of your knowledge is lacking a foundation in fact.

The Vietnam War was never my specialty in details, though I'm quite sure at some point China threatened to intervene, and obviously the Soviets were likely to do so. My apologies if I'm wrong on this.