Given the Egyptian view of "freedom", was Mubarak the better man?

[Vector]

Originally Posted by Rojik

Sooner or later they'll get sane

It's like saying the slavery shouldn't have been abolished, because sooner or later people would've understood slavery is bad.

You certainly are entitled to own opinion, but you seem to understand little of reasoning behind the conflict.

[Karri]

Originally Posted by Vector

It's like saying the slavery shouldn't have been abolished, because sooner or later people would've understood slavery is bad.

That makes no sense. If the change cannot come from inside the society, then how can any change ever come? I mean if all nations require outside help to abolish slavery then what is the first nation to abolish slavery?

And to my understanding the change came from within, not from outside, to abolish slavery.

[Rojik]

Originally Posted by Vector

It's like saying the slavery shouldn't have been abolished, because sooner or later people would've understood slavery is bad.

You certainly are entitled to own opinion, but you seem to understand little of reasoning behind the conflict.

Stupid analogy.

I really don't care about the reasons behind the conflict. I honestly couldn't care less if both sides blew themselves up. If you want to abolish 'Egyptian slavery' then be my guest - you are one of the neighbours I made reference to that might beat sanity into them. Of course they are also welcome to try and beat their brand of sanity into you too. But that's for you to worry about. You picked Crazy Land as a place to live and as far as I'm concerned you can do what the hell you like there.

My response was to Pirateship who - other than hoping than open season is declared on Islam - seems to think that the West (and in particular the US) can promote self determination and democracy but then overthrow self determined democracy if they choose one that doesn't fit our model. It hasn't worked there in the past and it won't work there in the future, so the best that can be done is stand back and hope they figure it out themselves while being ready to squash them if they carry those antics over to the rest of the world.

[Pirateship1982]

Originally Posted by Rojik

Stupid analogy.

I really don't care about the reasons behind the conflict. I honestly couldn't care less if both sides blew themselves up. If you want to abolish 'Egyptian slavery' then be my guest - you are one of the neighbours I made reference to that might beat sanity into them. Of course they are also welcome to try and beat their brand of sanity into you too. But that's for you to worry about. You picked Crazy Land as a place to live and as far as I'm concerned you can do what the hell you like there.

My response was to Pirateship who - other than hoping than open season is declared on Islam - seems to think that the West (and in particular the US) can promote self determination and democracy but then overthrow self determined democracy if they choose one that doesn't fit our model. It hasn't worked there in the past and it won't work there in the future, so the best that can be done is stand back and hope they figure it out themselves while being ready to squash them if they carry those antics over to the rest of the world.

Actually your belief isn't much different from mine barring the fact that I actually view Israel, a democracy and strategic ally, as part of that "rest of the world" that you would defend. I won't throw them under the wheels. Beyond that we agree.

[Rojik]

Originally Posted by Pirateship1982

Actually your belief isn't much different from mine barring the fact that I actually view Israel, a democracy and strategic ally, as part of that "rest of the world" that you would defend. I won't throw them under the wheels. Beyond that we agree.

If Israel was transplanted to pretty much anywhere else in the world then I'd include them, but the reality is that they are not, and they will continue to be a point of anger in a region that doesn't usually look for excuses to get angry. Fair? Maybe not but not many things are in this vale of tears.

I'm also not really sure what you get out of the strategic alliance. From here it looks like a one way street with you providing muscle and taking some of the heat that would be aimed at them. But that's your lookout and I'm happy that we sit over here with a nodding acquaintance.

But I suspect that the bigger issue for you is the treatment of the Christians there. In my book that comes under the "it sucks to be them" heading. I've had the misfortune of meeting and working with many Christians from that part of the world and they have the same brand of crazy in their heads that the Muslims do. As long as they are not getting shoved into gas chambers then as far as I'm concerned they can figure it out for themselves and persevere like they've done for the other 1400 years.

[Crackshot]

Originally Posted by Rojik

I'm also not really sure what you get out of the strategic alliance. From here it looks like a one way street with you providing muscle and taking some of the heat that would be aimed at them. But that's your lookout and I'm happy that we sit over here with a nodding acquaintance.

IMO the right thing to do is to keep supporting Israel, if not through finance then through language. I personally believe that Israel should be supported simply because it's a liberal democracy in an ocean of fundamentalist tyranny.

As for heat, the US would be targeted regardless of Israel because of their other actions in the middle east (stationing troops in the holy land, etc etc). Australia, for example, was targeted by proxy via Indonesia because it had a major role in the liberation of East Timor, which OBL wasn't very happy about.

[Vector]

Originally Posted by Karri

I mean if all nations require outside help to abolish slavery then what is the first nation to abolish slavery?

I didn't mean that all nations require outside help to change the regime or the line of thought, but in case of Middle Eastern Islamic states, the change isn't likely to come for hundreds of years to come. The question is what you are willing to sacrifice so that we can sit out and wait for the change to come. For example, during WW2, quite a few nations preferred to wait it all out, instead of confronting Nazi Germany. The major difference is that just in NG, people were brainwashed into committing horrible atrocities, but the whole thing ended when Hitler went to war. In Islamic states, the the course of action is different, there's no direct war. But there's far more hatred and incitement against anyone who is not Muslim.

And as recent experience with Egypt has shown us, it sits so deep in nation's psyche, that no "liberation" can change it. At least for now.

[Vector]

Originally Posted by Rojik

Stupid analogy.

Somehow, I fail to have respect for such comments.

Originally Posted by Rojik

You picked Crazy Land as a place to live and as far as I'm concerned you can do what the hell you like there.

I understand that liberal values are foreign to you, Sir, so I will let you dwell in your ignorance.

[Karri]

Originally Posted by Vector

I didn't mean that all nations require outside help to change the regime or the line of thought, but in case of Middle Eastern Islamic states, the change isn't likely to come for hundreds of years to come. The question is what you are willing to sacrifice so that we can sit out and wait for the change to come. For example, during WW2, quite a few nations preferred to wait it all out, instead of confronting Nazi Germany. The major difference is that just in NG, people were brainwashed into committing horrible atrocities, but the whole thing ended when Hitler went to war. In Islamic states, the the course of action is different, there's no direct war. But there's far more hatred and incitement against anyone who is not Muslim.

And as recent experience with Egypt has shown us, it sits so deep in nation's psyche, that no "liberation" can change it. At least for now.

No one would have touched Hitler if he hadn't invaded other nations. So history seems to follow the do not intervene approach.

[Vector]

Originally Posted by Karri

No one would have touched Hitler if he hadn't invaded other nations. So history seems to follow the do not intervene approach.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all pro-war. I believe every Israel knows what's it like to lose someone you know to war. Israelis fear the violent and anti-Semitic mentality in Arab and Muslim countries; a culture which often puts death before life. That's the only reason why Israel has to spend enormous amounts of money on the military, and why Israelis never feel safe in their own homes.

[Daemon of Decay]

Originally Posted by Destroyer25

I'm not so sure that religion is inherently beneficial for a functioning Liberal Democracy.

Perhaps not, but religious freedom is.

[Pirateship1982]

Originally Posted by Rojik

If Israel was transplanted to pretty much anywhere else in the world then I'd include them, but the reality is that they are not, and they will continue to be a point of anger in a region that doesn't usually look for excuses to get angry. Fair? Maybe not but not many things are in this vale of tears.

I'm also not really sure what you get out of the strategic alliance. From here it looks like a one way street with you providing muscle and taking some of the heat that would be aimed at them. But that's your lookout and I'm happy that we sit over here with a nodding acquaintance.

But I suspect that the bigger issue for you is the treatment of the Christians there. In my book that comes under the "it sucks to be them" heading. I've had the misfortune of meeting and working with many Christians from that part of the world and they have the same brand of crazy in their heads that the Muslims do. As long as they are not getting shoved into gas chambers then as far as I'm concerned they can figure it out for themselves and persevere like they've done for the other 1400 years.

You know for someone who gets all hot and bothered if you so much get the hint of me GENERALIZING about Islam you sure are tolerant of when your non bff societies get real pedsecution. Just another of my many observations. You are quite an interesting case study. But I'll be sure to remind you in my next Islam rant that violent persecution is fine as long as gas chambers aren't involved.

And you think I'm the crazy one. I'll take my crazy over your sane and be thankful to be so "mad".

[PhilipLaos]

Originally Posted by Pirateship1982

You know for someone who gets all hot and bothered if you so much get the hint of me GENERALIZING about Islam you sure are tolerant of when your non bff societies get real pedsecution. Just another of my many observations. You are quite an interesting case study. But I'll be sure to remind you in my next Islam rant that violent persecution is fine as long as gas chambers aren't involved.

And you think I'm the crazy one. I'll take my crazy over your sane and be thankful to be so "mad".

If you want to get angry about Islamic violence on Christians, look at the past 24 hours in which Christians have been targeted and murdered by Islamists on both the west and the east sides of Africa (Nigeria and Kenya) in unrelated attacks

For some reason we (and I include myself) pay far less attention to sub-Saharan Africa compared to other regions of the world.


Philip

[Pirateship1982]

Very true. One problem is people expect Africa to be violent so the routine keeps it out of the media. Bad stuff. VOM keeps tabs but I could never stomach how they romanticize persecution. There is nothing holy in what those people go through.

[andrewza]

I heard that Egypt is lowering the age at witch girls can mary to 14 a long with some other islamic based laws that will effect women differently.


Has for Africa. The world stopped carrying when the Europeans left.