HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East

Notices and Announcements

The Middle East Asia Minor, the Arab Mahgreb, and the Persian Gulf to include tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbors, Terrorist organizations and Iran.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 25 Apr 12, 00:46
Vector's Avatar
Vector Vector is offline
Sergeant
Israel
 
Real Name: Jonathan Boyko
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Jerusalem
Posts: 84
Vector has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
Sooner or later they'll get sane
It's like saying the slavery shouldn't have been abolished, because sooner or later people would've understood slavery is bad.

You certainly are entitled to own opinion, but you seem to understand little of reasoning behind the conflict.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 25 Apr 12, 01:13
Karri's Avatar
Karri Karri is offline
General of the Forums
Finland
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sliema
Posts: 6,310
Karri is simply cracking [600]
Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector View Post
It's like saying the slavery shouldn't have been abolished, because sooner or later people would've understood slavery is bad.
That makes no sense. If the change cannot come from inside the society, then how can any change ever come? I mean if all nations require outside help to abolish slavery then what is the first nation to abolish slavery?

And to my understanding the change came from within, not from outside, to abolish slavery.
__________________
I am neither good nor bad but a man

Rules have purpose. The time to break them is when the purpose is no longer served.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 25 Apr 12, 01:17
Rojik's Avatar
Rojik Rojik is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Keyser Söze
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bay 13
Posts: 7,581
Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector View Post
It's like saying the slavery shouldn't have been abolished, because sooner or later people would've understood slavery is bad.

You certainly are entitled to own opinion, but you seem to understand little of reasoning behind the conflict.
Stupid analogy.

I really don't care about the reasons behind the conflict. I honestly couldn't care less if both sides blew themselves up. If you want to abolish 'Egyptian slavery' then be my guest - you are one of the neighbours I made reference to that might beat sanity into them. Of course they are also welcome to try and beat their brand of sanity into you too. But that's for you to worry about. You picked Crazy Land as a place to live and as far as I'm concerned you can do what the hell you like there.

My response was to Pirateship who - other than hoping than open season is declared on Islam - seems to think that the West (and in particular the US) can promote self determination and democracy but then overthrow self determined democracy if they choose one that doesn't fit our model. It hasn't worked there in the past and it won't work there in the future, so the best that can be done is stand back and hope they figure it out themselves while being ready to squash them if they carry those antics over to the rest of the world.
__________________
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 25 Apr 12, 01:50
Pirateship1982's Avatar
Pirateship1982 Pirateship1982 is offline
General of the Forums
Pirate
March Offensive 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Mayor McCheese
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mega City Centralia
Posts: 12,658
Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
Stupid analogy.

I really don't care about the reasons behind the conflict. I honestly couldn't care less if both sides blew themselves up. If you want to abolish 'Egyptian slavery' then be my guest - you are one of the neighbours I made reference to that might beat sanity into them. Of course they are also welcome to try and beat their brand of sanity into you too. But that's for you to worry about. You picked Crazy Land as a place to live and as far as I'm concerned you can do what the hell you like there.

My response was to Pirateship who - other than hoping than open season is declared on Islam - seems to think that the West (and in particular the US) can promote self determination and democracy but then overthrow self determined democracy if they choose one that doesn't fit our model. It hasn't worked there in the past and it won't work there in the future, so the best that can be done is stand back and hope they figure it out themselves while being ready to squash them if they carry those antics over to the rest of the world.
Actually your belief isn't much different from mine barring the fact that I actually view Israel, a democracy and strategic ally, as part of that "rest of the world" that you would defend. I won't throw them under the wheels. Beyond that we agree.
__________________
How many tomatoes had to die to make your salad?!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 26 Apr 12, 04:01
Rojik's Avatar
Rojik Rojik is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Keyser Söze
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bay 13
Posts: 7,581
Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Rojik has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
Actually your belief isn't much different from mine barring the fact that I actually view Israel, a democracy and strategic ally, as part of that "rest of the world" that you would defend. I won't throw them under the wheels. Beyond that we agree.
If Israel was transplanted to pretty much anywhere else in the world then I'd include them, but the reality is that they are not, and they will continue to be a point of anger in a region that doesn't usually look for excuses to get angry. Fair? Maybe not but not many things are in this vale of tears.

I'm also not really sure what you get out of the strategic alliance. From here it looks like a one way street with you providing muscle and taking some of the heat that would be aimed at them. But that's your lookout and I'm happy that we sit over here with a nodding acquaintance.

But I suspect that the bigger issue for you is the treatment of the Christians there. In my book that comes under the "it sucks to be them" heading. I've had the misfortune of meeting and working with many Christians from that part of the world and they have the same brand of crazy in their heads that the Muslims do. As long as they are not getting shoved into gas chambers then as far as I'm concerned they can figure it out for themselves and persevere like they've done for the other 1400 years.
__________________
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 26 Apr 12, 04:23
Crackshot's Avatar
Crackshot Crackshot is offline
Brigadier General
Australia
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Noosa
Posts: 2,100
Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200] Crackshot is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
I'm also not really sure what you get out of the strategic alliance. From here it looks like a one way street with you providing muscle and taking some of the heat that would be aimed at them. But that's your lookout and I'm happy that we sit over here with a nodding acquaintance.
IMO the right thing to do is to keep supporting Israel, if not through finance then through language. I personally believe that Israel should be supported simply because it's a liberal democracy in an ocean of fundamentalist tyranny.

As for heat, the US would be targeted regardless of Israel because of their other actions in the middle east (stationing troops in the holy land, etc etc). Australia, for example, was targeted by proxy via Indonesia because it had a major role in the liberation of East Timor, which OBL wasn't very happy about.
__________________
"Only a complete moral idiot can believe for an instant that we are fighting against the wretched of the earth. We are fighting, as I said before, against the scum of the earth."

-- Christopher Hitchens
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 27 Apr 12, 13:11
Vector's Avatar
Vector Vector is offline
Sergeant
Israel
 
Real Name: Jonathan Boyko
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Jerusalem
Posts: 84
Vector has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
I mean if all nations require outside help to abolish slavery then what is the first nation to abolish slavery?
I didn't mean that all nations require outside help to change the regime or the line of thought, but in case of Middle Eastern Islamic states, the change isn't likely to come for hundreds of years to come. The question is what you are willing to sacrifice so that we can sit out and wait for the change to come. For example, during WW2, quite a few nations preferred to wait it all out, instead of confronting Nazi Germany. The major difference is that just in NG, people were brainwashed into committing horrible atrocities, but the whole thing ended when Hitler went to war. In Islamic states, the the course of action is different, there's no direct war. But there's far more hatred and incitement against anyone who is not Muslim.

And as recent experience with Egypt has shown us, it sits so deep in nation's psyche, that no "liberation" can change it. At least for now.
__________________
A tribute to IDF
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 27 Apr 12, 13:13
Vector's Avatar
Vector Vector is offline
Sergeant
Israel
 
Real Name: Jonathan Boyko
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Jerusalem
Posts: 84
Vector has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
Stupid analogy.
Somehow, I fail to have respect for such comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
You picked Crazy Land as a place to live and as far as I'm concerned you can do what the hell you like there.
I understand that liberal values are foreign to you, Sir, so I will let you dwell in your ignorance.
__________________
A tribute to IDF
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 27 Apr 12, 13:17
Karri's Avatar
Karri Karri is offline
General of the Forums
Finland
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sliema
Posts: 6,310
Karri is simply cracking [600]
Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600] Karri is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector View Post
I didn't mean that all nations require outside help to change the regime or the line of thought, but in case of Middle Eastern Islamic states, the change isn't likely to come for hundreds of years to come. The question is what you are willing to sacrifice so that we can sit out and wait for the change to come. For example, during WW2, quite a few nations preferred to wait it all out, instead of confronting Nazi Germany. The major difference is that just in NG, people were brainwashed into committing horrible atrocities, but the whole thing ended when Hitler went to war. In Islamic states, the the course of action is different, there's no direct war. But there's far more hatred and incitement against anyone who is not Muslim.

And as recent experience with Egypt has shown us, it sits so deep in nation's psyche, that no "liberation" can change it. At least for now.
No one would have touched Hitler if he hadn't invaded other nations. So history seems to follow the do not intervene approach.
__________________
I am neither good nor bad but a man

Rules have purpose. The time to break them is when the purpose is no longer served.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 27 Apr 12, 13:23
Vector's Avatar
Vector Vector is offline
Sergeant
Israel
 
Real Name: Jonathan Boyko
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Jerusalem
Posts: 84
Vector has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
No one would have touched Hitler if he hadn't invaded other nations. So history seems to follow the do not intervene approach.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all pro-war. I believe every Israel knows what's it like to lose someone you know to war. Israelis fear the violent and anti-Semitic mentality in Arab and Muslim countries; a culture which often puts death before life. That's the only reason why Israel has to spend enormous amounts of money on the military, and why Israelis never feel safe in their own homes.
__________________
A tribute to IDF
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 29 Apr 12, 16:59
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
General of the Forums
Sinc
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 5 Year Service Ribbon Distinguished Service Award 
Summer Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Derek
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Satellite Of Love
Posts: 14,025
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroyer25 View Post
I'm not so sure that religion is inherently beneficial for a functioning Liberal Democracy.
Perhaps not, but religious freedom is.
__________________
EiA: Archduke John of Austria

Through My Eyes - My Hearts of Iron AAR

Um actually, "Frankenstorm" was the name of the mad scientist who created it.
- Bill Corbett
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 30 Apr 12, 00:29
Pirateship1982's Avatar
Pirateship1982 Pirateship1982 is offline
General of the Forums
Pirate
March Offensive 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Mayor McCheese
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mega City Centralia
Posts: 12,658
Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
If Israel was transplanted to pretty much anywhere else in the world then I'd include them, but the reality is that they are not, and they will continue to be a point of anger in a region that doesn't usually look for excuses to get angry. Fair? Maybe not but not many things are in this vale of tears.

I'm also not really sure what you get out of the strategic alliance. From here it looks like a one way street with you providing muscle and taking some of the heat that would be aimed at them. But that's your lookout and I'm happy that we sit over here with a nodding acquaintance.

But I suspect that the bigger issue for you is the treatment of the Christians there. In my book that comes under the "it sucks to be them" heading. I've had the misfortune of meeting and working with many Christians from that part of the world and they have the same brand of crazy in their heads that the Muslims do. As long as they are not getting shoved into gas chambers then as far as I'm concerned they can figure it out for themselves and persevere like they've done for the other 1400 years.
You know for someone who gets all hot and bothered if you so much get the hint of me GENERALIZING about Islam you sure are tolerant of when your non bff societies get real pedsecution. Just another of my many observations. You are quite an interesting case study. But I'll be sure to remind you in my next Islam rant that violent persecution is fine as long as gas chambers aren't involved.

And you think I'm the crazy one. I'll take my crazy over your sane and be thankful to be so "mad".
__________________
How many tomatoes had to die to make your salad?!
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 30 Apr 12, 00:53
PhilipLaos's Avatar
PhilipLaos PhilipLaos is offline
Lord Of The English Manor
UK
Distinguished Service Award Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Philip Gibson
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Vientiane, Laos
Posts: 14,107
PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+] PhilipLaos has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
You know for someone who gets all hot and bothered if you so much get the hint of me GENERALIZING about Islam you sure are tolerant of when your non bff societies get real pedsecution. Just another of my many observations. You are quite an interesting case study. But I'll be sure to remind you in my next Islam rant that violent persecution is fine as long as gas chambers aren't involved.

And you think I'm the crazy one. I'll take my crazy over your sane and be thankful to be so "mad".
If you want to get angry about Islamic violence on Christians, look at the past 24 hours in which Christians have been targeted and murdered by Islamists on both the west and the east sides of Africa (Nigeria and Kenya) in unrelated attacks

For some reason we (and I include myself) pay far less attention to sub-Saharan Africa compared to other regions of the world.


Philip
__________________
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."— Bertrand Russell
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 30 Apr 12, 02:31
Pirateship1982's Avatar
Pirateship1982 Pirateship1982 is offline
General of the Forums
Pirate
March Offensive 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Mayor McCheese
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mega City Centralia
Posts: 12,658
Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pirateship1982 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Very true. One problem is people expect Africa to be violent so the routine keeps it out of the media. Bad stuff. VOM keeps tabs but I could never stomach how they romanticize persecution. There is nothing holy in what those people go through.
__________________
How many tomatoes had to die to make your salad?!
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 30 Apr 12, 02:57
andrewza's Avatar
andrewza andrewza is offline
General
South_Africa
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: siommons town
Posts: 4,153
andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100] andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100] andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100] andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100] andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100] andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100] andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100] andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100] andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100] andrewza has demonstrated strength of character [100]
I heard that Egypt is lowering the age at witch girls can mary to 14 a long with some other islamic based laws that will effect women differently.


Has for Africa. The world stopped carrying when the Europeans left.
__________________
Quote:
you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

CPO Mzinyati
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 23:25.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.