Desperation/starvation in Greece

[Tuck's Luck]

Originally Posted by Imperial

I'm not a socialist.

Secondly, you seem unaware that this isn't about the Euro, it's about Greece's deficits, debt and structural problems. This isn't the first crisis that plagues Greece, you can go back to the 19th century and you'll find debt-related crises in Greece. The only thing the Euro is doing is preventing Greece's fail-politicians to resort to currency manipulation to try to clean some of the mess they created. But even if they did that, they'd still have to adopt austerity measures and the Greeks' living standards would still have to drop.

And no, what I meant is not that others have it worse (although that is true and you don't see us rioting every other day) but that austerity measures and deficit-correction measures are also adopted in countries that don't have the Euro as currency.

I've deleted the word 'socialist' but I stand by the rest.

[lakechampainer]

Article from Deutsche Welle about how many young Greeks are taking up farming - even city kids - Article entitled "Young Greeks Return to the Land"

http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15881474,00.html

[Johan Banér]

Originally Posted by copenhagen

Come on to the Euro thread and see how irrational Euro supporters are and blinkered by dogma. Then multiply that a hundred times to Eurocrats and poltical leaders and you'll se they 'll try and keep this mess going.

You know, if we should all stoop to that level of argumentation, the next step would be something along the lines of accusing all Eurosceptics of some form or "moral panic", i.e. "You people can't think properly about this".

[copenhagen]

Originally Posted by Johan Banér

You know, if we should all stoop to that level of argumentation, the next step would be something along the lines of accusing all Eurosceptics of some form or "moral panic", i.e. "You people can't think properly about this".

I'm letting current events illustrate my point of view (as peoples savings and livelihoods go down the pan on the altar of the God of Eurozone) having been called mad for a decade or more. What's your excuse?

[Acheron]

In the past, Southern and South eastern European states regularly devalued their currency to deal with the crushing debt they accumulated. There is a reason the Mark ended up being like a hundred Lira. However, such inflations are no magical cure for such problems, as Germany discovered shortly after WWI, suffering hyperinflation. I suspect that Greece wouldn't have gotten easy if they had not adopted the Euro and could just inflate their Drachme, instead of people starving because they don't have enough Euros, they would in all likelihood be starving because they wouldn't have enough devalued Drachmes.
Greece problems are homemade, their bureaucracy is incompetent and inefficient, their establishment is customarily falsifying data as it suits them, this is how they got into the Euro in the first place, why the problems were discovered to late, and now everybody is reluctant to commit to Greece's rescue as you simply cannot trust them to report the truth.

As for the Euro's impact, I wonder: from how I understand the relation between currency and economic, Greece would need lower interest rates? But interest rates are already rather low in the Eurozone (and anywhere in the world for that matter), sure they could be even lower, but I wonder if the difference would be big enough to hypothetically make a difference for Greece.

[Pruitt]

Is the Greek Government trying to feed the people who can't buy food? Soup Kitchens would help. Maybe the Greek Orthodox Church could help? I would rather see Soup Kitchens than revolution.

Pruitt

[Cyberknight]

Apparantly the idea that Greeks are forced to grow food, work any odd jobs available, live withe extended families, only purchase necessities and otherwise learn to survive in a pay as you go economy is something other indebted countries around the world won't face is difficult for some to understand.

[Cult Icon]

Originally Posted by Half Pint John

Not 3 rd world but also not 1 st world. A 2 nd world country at best trying to live on the glory or it's past history. The past doesn't feed hungry people.

You're talking about Greece? Greece is a 1st world country with public debt over 125% of one year's GDP. very bad, but not enough to 'plunge' it down to the developing world.

GDP per capita is ~27,000 USD (IIRC) a year.

[Tiberius Duval]

Without Euro, Greeks simply could not have loaned that much of money and get to neck deep in brown substance.

As part of Euro system Greeks had access to very low interest loans, and investors implicitly believed that those loans would ultimately guaranteed by Germany and other rich euro countries. Of course that was offically denied as it was against basic agreements made in founding of currency Union, but as we have seen in EU agreements do not have value of the paper they are written to.

Now Germans and and for example we Finns are paying and paying and paying, nothing that will help ordinary Greeks but it will certainly help UK and US, and French banks. Especially UK banks cause some irritation to me, UK doesn't participate to bail outs but they reap the benefit. What would have been prudent approach is that not a single cent to Greek state, forcing them default and out of euro, forcing home countries of those reckless banks to bailout them themselves. Now risks have been cunningly transferred to tax payers of "rich" euro countries and banks and home countries of reckless inventors have been relieved of those losses.

Typical modern day financial capitalism. Profits are private, but losses are socialised.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Tiberius Duval

Typical modern day financial capitalism. Profits are private, but losses are socialised.

I can agree with that Tiberius! I believe our libertarian friends from the US would agree with that insofar as losses should be private....

Anyway I recall a documentary some years back about the Cretan diet (ie. Mediterranean diet) and how there were a high proportion of healthy seniors in Crete and among the lowest rates of heart disease in Europe. The folks they interviewed and followed were in there 80s, healthy and active. They lived in small villages, keeping physically active growing their own food (sold the surplus as well for some extra cash) and eating it, mostly fresh produce, a little meat, moderate drinking of wine and very little ouzo, and of course olive oil.

The younger generations have started moving to cities, a lot were shown in the biggest town Heraklion, going out, drinking more and eating "fast food" (gyros) more often. Working in tourism or other "modern" jobs. Want to bet who's hurting more in the current crisis?

*Yes I know I also have a modern lifestyle and am an urbanite....as many of you.

[Hop]

Now Germans and and for example we Finns are paying and paying and paying, nothing that will help ordinary Greeks but it will certainly help UK and US, and French banks. Especially UK banks cause some irritation to me, UK doesn't participate to bail outs but they reap the benefit.

British banks weren't very involved in loans to Greece. UBS published the following figures in mid 2011, exposure to Greek government debt by country's banks, billions of Euros:

Greece 46
France 9.4
Germany 7.9
Belgium 4.1
Netherlands 3.2
Cyprus/Greece 3
UK 2.3
Cyprus 2
Portugal 1.3
Italy 1.2

UK doesn't participate to bail outs

Britain is of course contributing via the IMF. The government announced another £10 billion for the IMF a few weeks ago.

[Kimi]

Results for Greece:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/

Looks a lot like exit of the euro zone for greece. ND and Pasok have 153 people in a 300 people parliament. They loose 3 and their majority is lost.

[Tiberius Duval]

Originally Posted by Hop

British banks weren't very involved in loans to Greece. UBS published the following figures in mid 2011, exposure to Greek government debt by country's banks, billions of Euros:

Greece 46
France 9.4
Germany 7.9
Belgium 4.1
Netherlands 3.2
Cyprus/Greece 3
UK 2.3
Cyprus 2
Portugal 1.3
Italy 1.2



Britain is of course contributing via the IMF. The government announced another £10 billion for the IMF a few weeks ago.

How much exposed you think our banks are to Greece, I tell, last figures I saw were in range of tens of millions of euro's. Nothing compared to sums we pay through EU bailouts, and IMF too. So Finnish tax payer's are paying to bail out banks based on countries in that above list. Not our own banks (which have generally quite small total exposure to PIIGS loans).

[Silent Hunter]

Originally Posted by Kimi

Results for Greece:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/

Looks a lot like exit of the euro zone for greece. ND and Pasok have 153 people in a 300 people parliament. They loose 3 and their majority is lost.

Actually, it turned out to be 149 - ND and Pasok can't form a majority government.

[Kimi]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter

Actually, it turned out to be 149 - ND and Pasok can't form a majority government.

Yep, saw that too. the "coalition of the radical left" (SYRIZA) also said they wont have any part in a ND-Pasok government and want to form one with the Communist party. They, in turn want nothing to do with any other party (who needs a second party when you have one, the true party?). Also Syriza wants to remain in the EU and eurozone (while of course not paying a single cent back, thats for others to do) while the Communist party wants to exit both in favor of joining up with the arabellion states.

So it indeed looks increasingly like the eurozone will become a bit smaller... perhaps even much smaller.

Also interesting that an openly fascist party has been voted in. The FN in france is extreme right but at least not (openly) fascist... any more. Generally the push to the right seems to continue, even when a socialist won in the end in france, the UMP+ND had a good run in the first round, better than the left put together.

Also has the added benefit that I can tell people to look at their own countries first when the usual talk about germany starts. I've even seen greeks and french defend themselves with the Weimar excuse lines which until yesterday where just cheap excuses by the evil germans.