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  #106  
Old 16 Apr 12, 12:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BF69 View Post
European & armies most certainly did recruit children during WW1. I don't intend wasting an evening searching for information on numbers etc., but kids as young as 12 were recruited. Some estimates run as high as 250,000 in all. Some were just a few years shy of the legal age, some were, as mentioned, barely pubescent. While recruiting them wasn't policy and some who were caught were returned home, a blind eye was turned more often than not. My own family is fortunate that a country doctor recognized that my grandfather was only 16 when he tried to enlist & listed him as 'medically unfit'. Many other doctors & recruiters were not so strict & many other boys were not so fortunate.

I suspect that in nations where things were more desperate and governments/military even even less scrupulous or simply less well run - Russia, Turkey & the Balkans - there were probably even more underage recruits. No plastic keys, just instructions to charge entrenched positions & machineguns or the hope that the hole you were in was deep enough or the armour on your ship strong enough when the shelling began.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/boy_soldiers.htm

http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-children.html

I also don't have time to track down accounts I have heard of the Russian army sending unarmed soldiers to the front with men having to 'share' a rifle - the unarmed guy trailed the armed one & picked up his rifle if he fell of scrounged one where he could. This too may be a myth, but nothing about the WW1 Rusian army would surprise me.

Oh, and sending troops over minefields - pretty sure the russians got there first too. Not kids, but 'not war' as you would have it.

Does this place my society & others in Europe outside the realms of 'western logic'? Is this proof that our societies were bent on self-destruction? Even Imperial Japan, which was actually pretty close to what you would have us believe Iran is actually like, blinked at the prospect of national destruction.

Somehow we all managed to survive two generations of nuclear standoff without nuking each other. We have even managed to survive hordes of American 'end times' Christians, some of whom have made it to the highest levels of power. Personally I think that are bat sh!t crazy, but they have managed not to bring on that armageddon thay so firmly believe in imminent.

So far your 'Israeli logic' isn't doing all that well. Perhaps you've been infected by all those crazies that surround you.
I don't recall a signal president, or congressperson, or chief of staff ever screaming or ranting on about how the end of the world is neigh, while in office.. Unless you believe people preaching on street corners hold the "highest level of power" in America.
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  #107  
Old 16 Apr 12, 14:37
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recruit versus "volunteer"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BF69 View Post
European & armies most certainly did recruit children during WW1.

I suspect that in nations where things were more desperate and governments/military even even less scrupulous or simply less well run - Russia, Turkey & the Balkans - there were probably even more underage recruits.
I wonder if "recruit" is the best word? The Royal Navy certainly allowed "Boys" to volunteer at young ages. The British Army used to allow Drummer Boys in. I wonder when they raised the age for musicians? Certain countries, Serbia comes to mind, allowed young boys to volunteer as Officer candidates. With the lack of good bookkeeping back then I suspect any oversized lad could volunteer. Calvin Graham of World War 2 fame is an example. Calvin was six foot tall at age 12. He failed his first attempt at getting in when the Dentist noticed he did not have his 12 year molars in yet!

I don't think any Army knowingly recruited 12 year olds. I am sure many a recruiting sergeant looked the other way in many cases.

All that being said, I think the Iranians allowed 12 year old's to volunteer as shock troops, even as it allowed the aged and not so agile. Weren't they paying a bonus to all such volunteer's families when they died in the attack?

Pruitt
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  #108  
Old 17 Apr 12, 01:39
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Whatever the rights and wrongs are on either side, and even whether Iran actually wants nuclear bombs or not, the question is: "How long will Israel wait?"

My feeling is: not very long at all.

I believe Israel will act before what they have consistently stated is the point at which Iran enters the 'zone of immunity'. (the point at which Iran will have enough enriched uranium under such hardened protection that airstrikes would not be able to reverse the situation)

Everything I've seen puts that at being around 6 months from now.

Last week, the European-led meetings with the Iranians were described as "very positive", and more talks will be held next month. The Israeli response was that that "gives Iran a freebie and another month to pursue enrichment."

If Israel is so concerned about time frames as short as a month, that gives us an indication about how close we are.

What could deter Israel from an attack was outlined by its Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, last week. You be the judge as to whether these conditions are likely to be met in the P5+1 talks next month.

Quote:
BARAK: Fareed, we see the Iranian nuclear military program as a challenge to the whole world, not just to Israel. We are convinced that to deal with it once it's nuclear will be much more complicated, much more dangerous, much more costly in terms of both a human life as well as financial resources.

But at the same time, we are not against any kind of effective and urgent sanctions, not even against negotiations. But we told our American friends as well as the Europeans that we would have expected the threshold for successful negotiation to be clear, namely that the P5+1 will demand clearly that:

- number one, no more enrichment to 20 percent.

- all already enriched 20 percent material out of the country to a neighboring trusted country.

- Then all the material enriched to 3.5 percent, probably except for a few hundred kilograms, should be taken out of the country, once again, into a neighboring trusted country.

- the installation in Fordo near Qom under the ground should be decommissioned in order not to enable them to resume enrichment to 20 percent, and

- tight inspection by the IAEA, according to protocol 3.1, should be imposed.

If all these are met, even if they get in exchange fuel rods for their TLR, their research reactor and so on, that could be OK. It would be a different regime.

But if the P5+1 will settle for a much lower threshold, like just stop enriching 20 percent, it means that basically the Iranians, at a very cheap cost, bought their way into continuing their military program, slightly slower, but without sanctions. That will be a total change of direction for the world.

ZAKARIA: And if that were to happen, if the Iranians were to -- if you were to end up with what you regard as a suboptimal or less- than-perfect solution, you have argued that Israel has a closing window opportunity to act because, at a certain point, the Iranian sites get hardened. Do you believe it would then be necessary -- is there time pressure on you? Do you believe that you have only a certain amount of time before which military strikes would not be effective against Iran?

BARAK: You know, by definition, we have a limited time. Every quarter it becomes shorter by a quarter.

From: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../fzgps.01.html
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Last edited by PhilipLaos; 17 Apr 12 at 01:54..
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  #109  
Old 17 Apr 12, 01:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathanrex1 View Post
I don't recall a signal president, or congressperson, or chief of staff ever screaming or ranting on about how the end of the world is neigh, while in office.
I dunno. Ronnie tried to outlaw the USSR.

I'm really wondering what the point of all this is. All this action will teach Iran is that having a nuke will stop these things happening. That's the lesson of Iraq and Nth Korea. Both thumbed their nose at the US. One has the bomb and the other doesn't. Guess who got invaded?

It's like a game of whack a mole. If a country wants a nuke badly enough it will get it eventually, and the more you bomb it in the mean time the more pissed off it will be when it finally has one.
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  #110  
Old 17 Apr 12, 18:02
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Iraq and the US have announced that the next round of nuclear talks will take place in Baghdad on May 23. I doubt if Israel will do anything until after these talks occur, however futile they may be.
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  #111  
Old 17 Apr 12, 18:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philiplaos View Post
Whatever the rights and wrongs are on either side, and even whether Iran actually wants nuclear bombs or not, the question is: "How long will Israel wait?"

My feeling is: not very long at all.
Phil, I do not know if Israel will wait but I personally hope that they will not do anything rash. Whereas I understand their concerns I cannot see anything good coming of Israel acting unilaterally; it's a loose loose anyway that you look at it.
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  #112  
Old 17 Apr 12, 22:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailboss49 View Post
Iraq and the US have announced that the next round of nuclear talks will take place in Baghdad on May 23. I doubt if Israel will do anything until after these talks occur, however futile they may be.
Obama has described those talks as "the last chance for diplomacy to work" and both the Israeli PM and the Foreign Minster have stated that only what amounts to total suspension of Iranian enrichment, shutting down the enrichment facilities, instituting total transparency and sending already enriched material out of the country will mollify the Israeli cabinet and dissuade them from launching pre-emptive attacks.

Anything less, and we can expect Israel to attack anytime following a failure (from Israel's standpoint) of those talks in late May and the point at which Iran enters the 'zone of immunity' (about 5/6 months from now).


Philip
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  #113  
Old 19 Apr 12, 10:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailboss49 View Post
Iraq and the US have announced that the next round of nuclear talks will take place in Baghdad on May 23. I doubt if Israel will do anything until after these talks occur, however futile they may be.
It will be very interesting to see what comes out of those talks and how Israel responds.

But Baghdad?

That's the last place I would have expected to be chosen for the talks. I'm sure there's a reason to hold the talks in Baghdad, but I can't think what it might be.

Quote:
19 April 2012 Last updated at 11:54 GMT

A series of deadly blasts has struck a number of Iraqi cities, killing at least 35 people and injuring 100 more, police say. Explosions were reported in the capital, Baghdad, and in Baquba, Kirkuk, Samarra, Dibis and Taji.

Blasts were reported in the following cities:
  • In Baghdad, a series of at least five blasts struck in various Shia neighbourhoods
  • Police say two car bombs went off in Kirkuk, 180 miles (290km) north of Baghdad
  • A suicide bomber killed a police officer in Baquba, an army officer said
  • Two car bombs targeted security forces in Samarra
  • A parked car exploded killing passers-by in Dibis
  • Roadside devices exploded in Taji and Mosul
It is the deadliest day in Iraq since 20 March - during the run-up to an Arab League summit in Baghdad - when shootings and bombings killed 45 people. Iraq is due to host a meeting of major international powers to discuss Iran's nuclear programme next month.
Philip
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  #114  
Old 21 Apr 12, 16:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philiplaos View Post
Obama has described those talks as "the last chance for diplomacy to work" and both the Israeli PM and the Foreign Minster have stated that only what amounts to total suspension of Iranian enrichment, shutting down the enrichment facilities, instituting total transparency and sending already enriched material out of the country will mollify the Israeli cabinet and dissuade them from launching pre-emptive attacks.

Anything less, and we can expect Israel to attack anytime following a failure (from Israel's standpoint) of those talks in late May and the point at which Iran enters the 'zone of immunity' (about 5/6 months from now).


Philip

Smoke and mirrors, it's an unreasonable demand which they know won't be met. But, Obama can say that they "tried" to have peace talks once the fighting begins.
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  #115  
Old 21 Apr 12, 23:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
Really? So they are going to sacrifice everything to try and destroy Israel, eh?

They've had around 30 years to try it, and they never really got around to doing anything about it. They could have utilized biological or chemical weapons against Israel any time in the past few decades. Of course, you must have an excellent reason for why they have never actually tried to destroy Israel until now, yes?

People seem to give Islam an air of terrible wonder and devious mystique, treating it much like the terrible bogey man that communism was during the last half of the 20th century. The ruling communist leadership of the Soviet Union was intent upon the destruction of capitalism and spreading the workers revolution to the rest of the world. Are you going to claim that from Stalin to Gorbachev all Soviet leaders were actually just sitting solely fixated upon that goal, or do you think that, in the due course of running a nation, they might have had a little more focus on keeping that nation intact and keeping their hands on the reigns of power?

The United States spent the Cold War intent upon the containment and destruction of communism. Yet our politicians, no matter how greedy, self-serving or self-righteous, weren't about to sacrifice the nation and its people to obtain that goal.

Now, why is Iran's leadership that much different than the leadership of other nations? Why is it that, despite 30+ years of evidence to the contrary, people seem to think that now Iran is ready to commit national jihad? Its the logic of fools and simpletons that sees Iran treated as a special case for national behavior that we have never once seen before - an entire civilian and military leadership dedicated to the futility of national suicide.
1. What 30 years you are talking about ?
You have forgotten about 8 years of Iran - Iraq war ?
You have forgotten that during that war Iran leaders sent
children equipped with knives to storm Iraqi positions ?
Do you think it was good enough to attack Israel ?
Do you know, that Iran was literately in ruins and
after the war and it required years and years to
restore country.
Which attack on Israel you are talking about ?
They basically started their rearmament 12-15 years ago.
When they were able, they developed their relationships with Syria,
equipped Hezbollah and Hezbollah provoked war in 2006.
So they, started their actions against Israel, when they had
necessary means for it.
Hence, your claim that Iran for 30 years did not attack Israel,
because there is nothing but Iranian void rhetoric - is just a
sample of the wishful thinking.

2.
Why are you talking about "national suicide" ?
There plenty of scenarios for Iran, to destroy Israel
using nukes directly, or non directly and not to be destroyed.

Now about "national suicide", which as you claim is impossible.
Do you remember, that Cambodian communists leaders
killed for couple of years near 40% of population of their own country ?
They were ready to kill more, but Vietnamese stopped them.
Wasn't it a "national suicide" ?
Nevertheless it had happened.






3.
You have forgotten, that Iran is not average state.
It is not even a totalitarian state.
It is totalitarian state with ideology based not on
secular theories, but on religion.
All people younger that 43 ( vast majority ) were
put under ayatollahs brainwashing.


If you forgot what religious fanaticism and interference
of religion in politics means , please read again about :
Religious wars 16- 17 cent,
extermination of entire religious groups up to the very last man,
Albigensian Crusade and the fate Albigensians,
St. Bartholomew's Day massacre,
Crusades,
Inquisition,
Witch-hunt
etc, etc etc
Than imagine the same with the nukes.


P.S.
I don't want to start again useless rational/irrational discussion.
I already multiple time had explained, that any social system after
being created gradually develops it's own logic and rules,
which could be different that ours.

A lot of actions by inquisition, Nazi, communists etc
looked quite strange from our point of view, but were
nevertheless logical from the POW of system, which
launched these actions.
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  #116  
Old 26 Apr 12, 07:38
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Israel Military's Chief of Staff. Iran is a rational state actor......

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backc...nuclear-weapon

He thinks they have yet to make the final decision to build a weapon:

Quote:
Iran "is going step-by-step to the place where it will be able to decide whether to manufacture a nuclear bomb. It hasn't yet decided whether to go the extra mile," he said.
Yes he's worried about their program:

Quote:
To summarize: Gantz is very worried, the mere possession of an Iranian "break out" capacity is alarming to Israel, and a ruling elite could some day rise in Iran that wouldn't act as rationally as he judges the current leadership core to be. But with an Israeli attack certain to close all diplomatic roads, and with a lack of certainty that such a move would succeed, it appears it wouldn't be wise for Israel to attack any time soon.
And once again, they are not irrational actors.

Quote:
"If the supreme religious leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei wants, he will advance it to the acquisition of a nuclear bomb, but the decision must first be taken. It will happen if Khamenei judges that he is invulnerable to a response. I believe he would be making an enormous mistake, and I don't think he will want to go the extra mile. I think the Iranian leadership is composed of very rational people. But I agree that such a capability, in the hands of Islamic fundamentalists who at particular moments could make different calculations, is dangerous."
I'm glad he shares my opinion.
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  #117  
Old 27 Apr 12, 01:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Engineer View Post
Israel Military's Chief of Staff. Iran is a rational state actor......

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backc...nuclear-weapon
General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, has also stated that he believes Iran to be a 'rational actor'. However, the decision whether or when to attack will not be made by the military leadership, but by the political leadership. Both the Israeli Prime Minister and the Defense Minister have stated repeatedly recently that they believe the Iranian leadership to be irrational and hell-bent on the destruction of Israel either by themselves or by proxies. They believe that the Iranian leadership is capable of putting their militant Islamic ideology before their survival. The Israeli PM and FM are in complete lock step on this and on what Iran needs to do to avert Israeli attacks on their nuclear facilities.

From an interview with the Israeli PM this week:

Quote:
BURNETT: No nations with nuclear weapons have ever gone to war with each other. I mean, take India and Pakistan. They haven't used them. Could it be that Israel and Iran could end up in a situation like that where the acquisition of the nuclear weapon ensures it would never be used?

NETANYAHU: Well, I'm not going to comment on Israel's purported capabilities. I will say that to date, since the advent of the nuclear age after Hiroshima all nuclear powers have been very careful with the use or more accurately, the non-use of the nuclear weapons. But when it comes to a militant Islamic regime, I wouldn't be too sure. Because unlike, say the Soviets, they can put their ideology before their survival, so I don't think you can bet on their rationality. Iran has given its terror proxies Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon the most advanced lethal weapons, whatever weapons they have to give them and they fired now 10 - 12,000 rockets on Israel's cities...

...Think of what they could do with nuclear weapons. And I don't think you want to bet the peace in the Middle East and the security of the world on Iran's rational behavior. I think it is a much safer bet to do what I and President Obama and others have said, prevent Iran from acquiring atomic bombs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Engineer View Post
He thinks they (the Iranian leadership) have yet to make the final decision to build a weapon:
That's a moot point as far as it relates to the question: "How long will Israel wait?", since Israel has clearly stated that they will not wait until the point where Iran has the option to make the decision to militarize their nuclear production or not.

More from this week's interview with the Israeli PM:

Quote:
...BURNETT: You've said repeatedly, you said it in March; I know you said it to the Army radio this morning. It is not a problem of days but it's also not a problem of years. Now you said that first in March so I would imagine not years, plural. That means you think this will be resolved by next spring?

NETANYAHU: Well, I hope it is resolved and I hope it is resolved peacefully. Certainly the international community is putting a lot of pressure on Iran and making clear that its nuclear program must stop....so far they haven't rolled back the Iranian program or even stopped it by one iota. I mean, I hope that changes, but so far, I can tell you the centrifuges are spinning. They were spinning before the talks began recently with Iran. They were spinning during the talks. They're spinning as we speak. So, if the sanctions are going to work, they better work soon...

...BURNETT: Do you worry that you are going to put yourself in a position though that you may have to strike, a strike which even former head of the Mossad has said would only delay, not end the Iranian nuclear program? That by stating it is not days, but it's not years - you are going to end up with a date where if you don't do it, you look like you couldn't or you wouldn't so you have to?

NETANYAHU: I'm not worried what we look like. I am worried about stopping this. And I think there are really three principles that should guide us. They have been echoed by the United States and I think any sensible person understands that. The first is that Iran's nuclear weapons program must be stopped. The second is that containment is not an option. And the third is that Israel, the state of the Jewish people, must have the capacity to defend itself by itself against any threat.
Complete transcript of the interview at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...24/ebo.01.html
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Last edited by PhilipLaos; 27 Apr 12 at 01:31..
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Old 28 Apr 12, 17:18
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Israel ex-security chief says leadership 'misleading public' on Iran

The former head of Israel's domestic intelligence agency has accused the country's leadership of "misleading" the public on the merits of a possible military strike on Iran.

Quote:
28 April 2012

Yuval Diskin said an attack might speed up any attempt by Iran to obtain a nuclear bomb. The comment follows remarks by other leading figures contradicting the prime minister and defence chief's views on the subject. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defence Minister Ehud Barak have repeatedly said Iran must be prevented from building nuclear weapons and have not ruled out military action to disrupt its nuclear programme.

Mr Diskin, who stepped down as Shin Bet chief last year after six years, said he had "no faith in the current leadership" of Mr Netanyahu and Mr Barak, according to Israeli media reports. "I don't believe in a leadership that makes decisions based on messianic feelings," he said at a public meeting.

Mr Diskin's harsh criticism appears to be another sign of deep disquiet within the Israeli military and intelligence community over Prime Minister Netanyahu's threats to attack Iran. Prior to Mr Dagan's remarks on US television, Mr Netanyahu had inferred he would not countenance a long delay before taking direct action against Iran's nuclear programme if all other options failed.
From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-midd...44#TWEET134684
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Old 28 Apr 12, 17:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik View Post
I dunno. Ronnie tried to outlaw the USSR.

I'm really wondering what the point of all this is. All this action will teach Iran is that having a nuke will stop these things happening. That's the lesson of Iraq and Nth Korea. Both thumbed their nose at the US. One has the bomb and the other doesn't. Guess who got invaded?

It's like a game of whack a mole. If a country wants a nuke badly enough it will get it eventually, and the more you bomb it in the mean time the more pissed off it will be when it finally has one.
Regan's policy of confronting the Soviets with Star Wars resulted in their economic collapse with all countries that were under their grip free to determined their own independence and Germany becoming reunited.

With the invasion of Iraq, Libya gave up its quest for the bomb and trade was resumed there. Under Obama, civil war erupted in both Egypt and Libya with the results that the Muslim Brotherhood now controls those countries.

Obama has also used his dictatorial powers to bypass Congress to restore millions in aid to the Palestinians. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pres...united-states/

Obama seems more determined then ever to ignite Armageddon in the Middle East for political gain this fall.
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Old 28 Apr 12, 17:57
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So Obama is responsible for the Arab Spring uprisings? How did he get Mohamed Bouazizi to set himself on fire - was it instructions through a phone call, email or perhaps the CIA did it. Hats off to Obama though - he was able to orchestra regional chaos, several uprisings against dictators and regimes that had been in power for decades and at the same time do it all whilst being criticised for not doing enough to help the rebels or for supporting the dictators. Now that took planning and organisation.
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