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Alternate Timelines The plausible "what if's" of military history.

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  #1561  
Old 16 Apr 12, 22:22
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Originally Posted by hairog View Post
If the RAF/US attacks the Soviets in France the same is true for them.
Please disregard my "America Fights Back Pt 1" post.

I am leaving the story to you.

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  #1562  
Old 16 Apr 12, 22:48
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Originally Posted by hairog View Post
And once again the Soviets were incapable of using machine tools and welding equipment.
No, but they are going to have to disarm the shells or the fuzes or both.... That means disassembling them, doing the necessary changes, and then reassembling them.... Or, are you proposing that they do the changes on live ammunition?

As for a "million fuzes" that will take some time......

Oh, as a side note, I ran machine shops in the Navy for over 15 years and I am an absolute expert on the installlation and repair of machine tools having installed and repaired literally hundreds of them......
  #1563  
Old 17 Apr 12, 05:45
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Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Under Stalin, the West's spies in the Soviet Union were dubious at best - his out numbered ours by zillions to one.
The West would only need one ...

But seriously, you're not giving any credence to Hairog's rubbish?

The Soviet spy network in the West would disintegrate the minute they knew of Stalins plans for aggressive war. That is not why they signed up, not what they believed in.
And on the other side, with the very porous borders of 45-46, defectors would be absolutely flooding into the West - who on earth would want to go through 41-45 again?
  #1564  
Old 17 Apr 12, 06:57
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
The West would only need one ...

But seriously, you're not giving any credence to Hairog's rubbish?

The Soviet spy network in the West would disintegrate the minute they knew of Stalins plans for aggressive war. That is not why they signed up, not what they believed in.
And on the other side, with the very porous borders of 45-46, defectors would be absolutely flooding into the West - who on earth would want to go through 41-45 again?
Exactly. What the proponents seem to be oblivious to is that once you reveal your capabilities, your network starts to come apart, a victim of its own success. I have no doubt that on D-Day the Soviet spy network can provide them with all the data that they need, and accomplish the various and sundry tasks associated (though mass assassinations of hundreds of people, even in simultaneous 'accidents' are pretty out there). However, on D+30 and beyond, they cannot rely on the same quality of data, and will start to be fed misinformation as well, which must be filtered. As the days drag on, the Soviet network will rapidly exhaust itself, as defenders do not need the level of information that attackers do. And as I said before, the moment the level of infiltration is revealed by the Soviets doing untoward things (Mass 'accidents' that only a fool would not correlate with D-Day and realize are bombings/assassinations, Emplacing large numbers of rare missiles exactly where they can be used against a counterstrike (and no, only a total arsehat would believe that the Soviets could produce tens of thousands of guided missiles when they were practically begging for lend-lease just 3 years earlier), etc.), compartmentalization and massive immediate investigations of practically everyone will be made. You start by going through who knew about something, then you check all their financials (99.99999% of spies receive some sort of compensation no matter what their 'ideals' are), then you start seeing who hangs around and asks questions when they really shouldn't be, etc. The spies will either have to go cold to save their covers (meaning no data flowing to Beria), or be exposed. And once they start to be exposed then the network will tear itself apart at the seams.

It is patently dishonest to compare a peacetime spy campaign in which information passed on might not be acted on for months or years, to a fast-paced spy campaign in which information passed on is literally being utilized within weeks or days. The former is far easier to emplace and maintain. The latter is extremely difficult....orders of magnitude more difficult.....because the network to remain inobtrusive even while obtaining and passing on information with very short shelf-lives and low distribution on a wide variety of topics simultaneously, and has to do it regularly and through faster methods than the old-school fieldcraft that marked some of the most effective Soviet methods (dead drops, etc.). Once you go to the airwaves to pass on tactically relevent data, then you're subject to interception....and since this is wartime, any unauthorized broadcast (with signal strength to say reach across the channel into Northern France or Germany) is subject to being pounced on immediately, regardless of content. Triangulating and homing on radio signals is an old tech by 46....the Japanese used it on Dec, 7th, 41.
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Last edited by TacCovert4; 17 Apr 12 at 07:02..
  #1565  
Old 17 Apr 12, 08:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
I have no doubt that on D-Day the Soviet spy network can provide them with all the data that they need, and accomplish the various and sundry tasks associated (though mass assassinations of hundreds of people, even in simultaneous 'accidents' are pretty out there).
Oh, I have doubt on that. Just looking at the lives of some of these spies and they're hardly the steel-eyed fanatics one would expect but alcoholics, homosexualists and odd-balls, many of whom the Soviets distrusted and who mostly became disillusioned with Communism.

How many of them would really be trusted with any information on a "surprise" attack?
  #1566  
Old 17 Apr 12, 20:23
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
The West would only need one ...

But seriously, you're not giving any credence to Hairog's rubbish?

The Soviet spy network in the West would disintegrate the minute they knew of Stalins plans for aggressive war. That is not why they signed up, not what they believed in.
And on the other side, with the very porous borders of 45-46, defectors would be absolutely flooding into the West - who on earth would want to go through 41-45 again?
Flooding into what West? Across the Channel to England? Across the Pyrenees through two armies?

You, T.A., Roddoss and others are perfect examples of people who can ignore facts and logic if it disagrees with their world view. No amount of reasoned discussion will change your opinion on certain matters. Just like you many of the Communists in Britain, France, Greece, Italy will cling to their world view no matter what.

For spies who are wavering there is always blackmail or threats to keep them in line.

Do you really think that a committed Communist like the Cambridge 5 or the Rosenbergs etc. are going to change their idealized version of Marx and embrace the hated capitalist pigs because of a few dead Germans and Frenchman or even some their own? Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. 10,000 deaths now will save billions the pain and suffering of a Capitalist hell. The workers paradise is only months away if we just believe. Yada yada yada.
  #1567  
Old 17 Apr 12, 21:01
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[QUOTE=hairog;2222326]
You, T.A., Roddoss and others are perfect examples of people who can ignore facts and logic if it disagrees with their world view. No amount of reasoned discussion will change your opinion on certain matters. Just like you many of the Communists in Britain, France, Greece, Italy will cling to their world view no matter what.


Considering that Roddoss was someone that was working With you at one point, that's a pretty strong accusation. It seems that the moment someone stops being useful to your arguments that they're suddenly 'ignoring facts and logic because it disagrees with their worldview'. Very....Stalinist....of you.

[QUOTE=hairog;2222326]For spies who are wavering there is always blackmail or threats to keep them in line.


Blackmail or threats of what? Exposing them as a spy? That's the worst thing you can do....give them yet another reason to defect and take with them all the information they have on the level that security has been breached. Killing them? You don't have the assassins in place to do all that, and you can't rely on 'local talent' to do it for you since communications in are far more restricted than in the OTL. If you rely on the other spies, then you risk them being caught and further degrading your capability, or defecting themselves. Some enigmatic threat about things once the Soviets are victorious? They're coming apart because while they might have once believed in communism, or the almighty ruble, they're seeing the Soviets as another Napoleon, speaking equality while being little more than an avaricious beast wanting to conquer the world and willing to attack with no provocation to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
Do you really think that a committed Communist like the Cambridge 5 or the Rosenbergs etc. are going to change their idealized version of Marx and embrace the hated capitalist pigs because of a few dead Germans and Frenchman or even some their own? Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. 10,000 deaths now will save billions the pain and suffering of a Capitalist hell. The workers paradise is only months away if we just believe. Yada yada yada.
Did Stalin himself even believe in that tripe? Some of them will continue to be true believers, but not all. And all it takes is one in the right position to decide that they might have been mistaken and the network suddenly becomes less effective. You are still playing directly to the weaknesses of your plan as strengths, while seemingly ignoring the many conventional strengths that are there to work with. The Air and Naval games aren't the Soviet's strengths, as are the high-tech stuff that seemingly pops out of nowhere fully functional because of 1 man. The Spy game being played to the level of absolute omniscience, again, not a strength. All the conventional strengths, mostly in ground and unguided rocketry and armor, and you choose to go right after the most difficult objectives as obvious and easy.
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  #1568  
Old 17 Apr 12, 23:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
Flooding into what West? Across the Channel to England? Across the Pyrenees through two armies?

You, T.A., Roddoss and others are perfect examples of people who can ignore facts and logic if it disagrees with their world view. No amount of reasoned discussion will change your opinion on certain matters. Just like you many of the Communists in Britain, France, Greece, Italy will cling to their world view no matter what.

For spies who are wavering there is always blackmail or threats to keep them in line.

Do you really think that a committed Communist like the Cambridge 5 or the Rosenbergs etc. are going to change their idealized version of Marx and embrace the hated capitalist pigs because of a few dead Germans and Frenchman or even some their own? Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. 10,000 deaths now will save billions the pain and suffering of a Capitalist hell. The workers paradise is only months away if we just believe. Yada yada yada.
[QUOTE=TacCovert4;2222350][QUOTE=hairog;2222326]
You, T.A., Roddoss and others are perfect examples of people who can ignore facts and logic if it disagrees with their world view. No amount of reasoned discussion will change your opinion on certain matters. Just like you many of the Communists in Britain, France, Greece, Italy will cling to their world view no matter what.


Considering that Roddoss was someone that was working With you at one point, that's a pretty strong accusation. It seems that the moment someone stops being useful to your arguments that they're suddenly 'ignoring facts and logic because it disagrees with their worldview'. Very....Stalinist....of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
For spies who are wavering there is always blackmail or threats to keep them in line.


Blackmail or threats of what? Exposing them as a spy? That's the worst thing you can do....give them yet another reason to defect and take with them all the information they have on the level that security has been breached. Killing them? You don't have the assassins in place to do all that, and you can't rely on 'local talent' to do it for you since communications in are far more restricted than in the OTL. If you rely on the other spies, then you risk them being caught and further degrading your capability, or defecting themselves. Some enigmatic threat about things once the Soviets are victorious? They're coming apart because while they might have once believed in communism, or the almighty ruble, they're seeing the Soviets as another Napoleon, speaking equality while being little more than an avaricious beast wanting to conquer the world and willing to attack with no provocation to do so.



Did Stalin himself even believe in that tripe? Some of them will continue to be true believers, but not all. And all it takes is one in the right position to decide that they might have been mistaken and the network suddenly becomes less effective. You are still playing directly to the weaknesses of your plan as strengths, while seemingly ignoring the many conventional strengths that are there to work with. The Air and Naval games aren't the Soviet's strengths, as are the high-tech stuff that seemingly pops out of nowhere fully functional because of 1 man. The Spy game being played to the level of absolute omniscience, again, not a strength. All the conventional strengths, mostly in ground and unguided rocketry and armor, and you choose to go right after the most difficult objectives as obvious and easy.
This personal attack by Hairog on me actually hurt, because i was fully prepared to work with him and to provide an exceptionally good scenario on both the Soviet Invasion of Turkey and an attack on the USA, the scenario was well thought out and researched.

Hairog was very happy that i PM'd him over these scenarios, he said that i should go with it and considering the timeframe of 1st May to 28th October my scenarios would be both plausible and well within the limits of the Soviets given a slight authors lattitude.

But in the end i suspected that Hairog could not allow anyone to rain on his parade, basically i don't think that in this particular forum he wants anyone else any credit, jealousy perhaps.

It is a shame, he'll never ever know the fantastic outcome the Soviets were going to get from my scenarios, i wish him well.
  #1569  
Old 18 Apr 12, 13:25
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[QUOTE=Roddoss72;2222476][QUOTE=TacCovert4;2222350]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
You, T.A., Roddoss and others are perfect examples of people who can ignore facts and logic if it disagrees with their world view. No amount of reasoned discussion will change your opinion on certain matters. Just like you many of the Communists in Britain, France, Greece, Italy will cling to their world view no matter what.


Considering that Roddoss was someone that was working With you at one point, that's a pretty strong accusation. It seems that the moment someone stops being useful to your arguments that they're suddenly 'ignoring facts and logic because it disagrees with their worldview'. Very....Stalinist....of you.
You have no idea of the history of what Roddoss has done or not done concerning his interaction with me. But I am willing to let by-gones be by by-gones. It was this unsolicited and un-vetted post that made me assume that once again he was up to old tricks.

Post #1545

It was nothing to do with what he PMed me about and is totally at odds to any storyline parameters discussed. It looked like he was going rouge again like he has done numerous times in the past. Itís one step forward and two steps back with him.

Quote:
[B]This personal attack by Hairog on me actually hurt, because i was fully prepared to work with him and to provide an exceptionally good scenario on both the Soviet Invasion of Turkey and an attack on the USA, the scenario was well thought out and researched.
[b]

I'm truly sorry if you are upset. That is never my intention. I fight fire with fire as some of you have found out. I never instigate but I do retaliate if pushed too far and a statement that "someone is locked into their world view" is not that insulting compared to the things some of you have accused me of. I really hope that none of you are really taking this personal. We just disagree and Iím trying to point out why I believe that is so.

Again unsolicited post #1545 is not an example of working with me. It's an example of previous destructive behavior.


Quote:
Hairog was very happy that i PM'd him over these scenarios, he said that i should go with it and considering the timeframe of 1st May to 28th October my scenarios would be both plausible and well within the limits of the Soviets given a slight authors lattitude.


Yes I was and then I never heard anything from you and then post #1545 comes along. Sure looked like you had stabbed me in the back once again. If that was not your intention then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Quote:
But in the end i suspected that Hairog could not allow anyone to rain on his parade, basically i don't think that in this particular forum he wants anyone else any credit, jealousy perhaps.


Perhaps not. You are aware, I'm sure, of my collaboration in other venues and the full credit and support I give to my compatriots there. This is the only forum where the opposition is palpable and personal. Nowhere else but here.

Quote:
It is a shame, he'll never ever know the fantastic outcome the Soviets were going to get from my scenarios, i wish him well.


Go ahead and post it. You posted #1545 without my assistance. You will get full credit if it is used anywhere else and I will not use it if you do not give me permission. It's up to you.

None of you have tried to work under the simple guidelines that any cooperative endeavor needs to have to succeed. Try it. I guarantee you will like it. At least a dozen others have.
  #1570  
Old 18 Apr 12, 16:10
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Blackmail or threats of what? Exposing them as a spy? That's the worst thing you can do....give them yet another reason to defect and take with them all the information they have on the level that security has been breached.
I think that being put up against a wall and being shot or hung as a traitor is pretty scary myself.

Quote:
Killing them? You don't have the assassins in place to do all that, and you can't rely on 'local talent' to do it for you since communications in are far more restricted than in the OTL.

It's still a threat and that's all that might be needed. Do they have family back in the motherland or how about occupied Western Europe?


Quote:
If you rely on the other spies, then you risk them being caught and further degrading your capability, or defecting themselves. Some enigmatic threat about things once the Soviets are victorious?
As a number of you have amply demonstrated, someones world view is incredibley powerful and many take it to their grave. It doesn't matter if you are given the wrong information or the Big Lie. If you believe the source and that the information is true then no amount of evidence will diswade you from holding on to your position. There are still hundreds of thousands of Russian citizens who deify Stalin and the same goes for Mao. They do not believe that Stalin killed millions. Many Germans do not believe the holocost was real.


Quote:
They're coming apart because while they might have once believed in communism, or the almighty ruble, they're seeing the Soviets as another Napoleon, speaking equality while being little more than an avaricious beast wanting to conquer the world and willing to attack with no provocation to do so.
Yes some of them probalbly are coming apart. You do understand the basics of spy craft and compatmentalization, need to know etc. Of the Cambridge 5, three of them took flight to what was widely know as the hell hole of the USSR rather than stand trial and they were British born and bred. They believe so strongly in Communism or feared being caught, that they fled to Russia and lived for the rest of the lives there at the height of the cold war. Rather than take their chances with a peacetime court of law.

Quote:
Did Stalin himself even believe in that tripe?
At some point probably not.

Quote:
Some of them will continue to be true believers, but not all. And all it takes is one in the right position to decide that they might have been mistaken and the network suddenly becomes less effective.
Again basic spy craft, compartmentalization, spy cells etc. Very basic stuff used by all today.

Quote:
You are still playing directly to the weaknesses of your plan as strengths, while seemingly ignoring the many conventional strengths that are there to work with. The Air and Naval games aren't the Soviet's strengths, as are the high-tech stuff that seemingly pops out of nowhere fully functional because of 1 man.
Then you are not understanding what you've read. The conventional wisdom is that the Soviets have to negate the B29 and the atomic bomb at the least. This is the base we have to start with. My proposals have been deemed plausable and intreging by most. You few disagree. So be it.

The Wasserfal started testing in 1943 but was put on the back burner by the Germans. The Soviets continued their work while watching developments in Germany. So the Soviet have been working since 1943.

The X-4 first test was June 1943. The Germans dropped the ball. The Soviets didn't because one man kept them on task. One man who had the ear of Stalin. That's all that one man did. He is not a scientist, engineer, inventor etc. He is a classic industrialist. No more and no less talented than Speir, Ford or Boeing. He is doing nothing more than anyone one of them has done. He is not a superman as some of you continue to insist. There are literally 100s of his peers all over the world who accomplish just as much as he has. He is just focused on aerospace and stopping the B29.

The polonium attack was by Beria. The assasinations were by Beria.

Quote:
The Spy game being played to the level of absolute omniscience, again, not a strength. All the conventional strengths, mostly in ground and unguided rocketry and armor, and you choose to go right after the most difficult objectives as obvious and easy.
Obviously not true. The Soviets have lost track of the entire US SAC. Louisville Slugger escaped detection. The French held them up for two critical weeks. Once again you world view has tainted reality. In the end the Soviets are screwed because of these early blunders. You just don't realize it yet.

The Soviets have only a handful of missiles. Nowhere near what they need. They have used their ground forces and armor to take much of Western Europe. What more do you want? And once the US touches land in Europe again you will see these strengths come into play once more. Do I have the Soviets blackening the skies with jets or TU4s? No I do not. Do I have them producing missiles by the thousands. No I do not.

Most others are insisting that the Soviets are helpless against US and British airpower and you chide me for finding solutions to that threat? That is the key to the whole story being plausible. Luckily there were some Germany Secret Weapons in development that could have worked or this story would never have gained the readership it has.

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  #1571  
Old 18 Apr 12, 23:05
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The Soviets didn't because one man kept them on task. One man who had the ear of Stalin. That's all that one man did. He is not a scientist, engineer, inventor etc. He is a classic industrialist. No more and no less talented than Speir, Ford or Boeing. He is doing nothing more than anyone one of them has done. He is not a superman as some of you continue to insist. There are literally 100s of his peers all over the world who accomplish just as much as he has. He is just focused on aerospace and stopping the B29.
The problem in all this is that this means Stalin isn't Stalin and his inner circle are not the sort of people they actually were. If Stalin thought anyone as high as Sergi was actually gaining alot of power he would have been gone. If Sergi fails, even if it isn't his fault in any way, he's off to the Gulag or worse.

Stalin was a brutal dictator. He threw Polikarpov in a Gulag for his aircraft's failures in the Sino-Soviet border clashes. Following the poor performance of the Red Air Force against the Japanese Polikarpov, not poor pilot training and experiance, was blamed for the failure. Mikoyan and Gurevich took over his design bureau. Tupolev was similarly thrown in a Gulag but managed to redeem himself. Look at the purge. Stalin had no qualms about shooting or imprisoning some of his best and top officers to prevent what he felt was a threat to his control. He had agents track Trotsky to Mexico and murder him to eliminate a virtually non-existant threat to his rule.
Pilots and soldiers that found themselves behind German lines or were made POW's were considered either traitors or untrustworthy afterwards. Agencies would lie, cheat, steal to save their skins in the enviroment of Stalin's Soviet Union. An example of this is the research institute tasked in WW 2 with developing a gun laying radar for AA fire. They found they just couldn't come up with a solution.
Then they discovered that a shipment of British gunlaying radars was due in Murmansk in the near future. They sent some represenatives there to meet the ship. They had the radars unloaded, put in a warehouse under guard, and took one set back to their labs.
There they copied the British set and then shipped the original back to Murmansk. They then told the British to take all of the sets they sent back as they were unwanted by the Soviets. After that they went to Stalin and showed them the set they "invented." Stalin was impressed and there were medals and awards for their efforts.
They invented nothing. They copied a British radar and put it in production. But, because of the way things worked in the Soviet Union they were loathe, and in fact, unable to admit the truth.
There is another story of the typewriter factory where they lacked one key for the typewriters they were making. For some reason it was overlooked or messed up. The management had the typewriters assembled anyway and shipped them missing the one key. For years documents all over the Soviet Union had one letter throughout them written in because of this. The factory was rewarded for meeting its production quota.

That is Stalinist Russia. Sergi would be shot or imprisoned the second Stalin thought he was too powerful. If not Stalin, one of his cronies would have done it. It is a virtual necessity in any brutal dictatorship things be that way.

The only way I can realistically see this story working is that the Soviets find the technologies they need already developed in full or nearly full with all that remains to do is put them in production.
The timeline postwar is simply too short for everything to come to fruition using just Soviet means. Their nation is too compartmentalized, to fraught with dangers of failure. It isn't that they can't invent stuff. It's just they cannot do it quickly, efficently, or on a mass scale of cooperation.
  #1572  
Old 19 Apr 12, 01:42
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Roddoss72 Roddoss72 is offline
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[QUOTE=hairog;2222818][QUOTE=Roddoss72;2222476]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post

You have no idea of the history of what Roddoss has done or not done concerning his interaction with me. But I am willing to let by-gones be by by-gones. It was this unsolicited and un-vetted post that made me assume that once again he was up to old tricks.

Post #1545

It was nothing to do with what he PMed me about and is totally at odds to any storyline parameters discussed. It looked like he was going rouge again like he has done numerous times in the past. Itís one step forward and two steps back with him.

[b]

I'm truly sorry if you are upset. That is never my intention. I fight fire with fire as some of you have found out. I never instigate but I do retaliate if pushed too far and a statement that "someone is locked into their world view" is not that insulting compared to the things some of you have accused me of. I really hope that none of you are really taking this personal. We just disagree and Iím trying to point out why I believe that is so.

Again unsolicited post #1545 is not an example of working with me. It's an example of previous destructive behavior.




Yes I was and then I never heard anything from you and then post #1545 comes along. Sure looked like you had stabbed me in the back once again. If that was not your intention then I apologize for the misunderstanding.



Perhaps not. You are aware, I'm sure, of my collaboration in other venues and the full credit and support I give to my compatriots there. This is the only forum where the opposition is palpable and personal. Nowhere else but here.



Go ahead and post it. You posted #1545 without my assistance. You will get full credit if it is used anywhere else and I will not use it if you do not give me permission. It's up to you.

None of you have tried to work under the simple guidelines that any cooperative endeavor needs to have to succeed. Try it. I guarantee you will like it. At least a dozen others have.
You're a liar of the highest order, i PM and asked if i could assist you in a plausible scenario, you agreed, you asked me to post it, you never ever asked me via a PM to send you the scenario so it could be vetted by you. Hell you even said i would get credit for it.

You, and i repeat you gave me permission to post what i did.

Then you attacked me, then you accused me of going rogue, and up to my same old tricks, not only that you accuse me of stabbing you in the back again.

You crossed the line with me, and i can absolutely assure you now you have made one very angry enemy, and intend to tear your scenario to shreds with the help of others, you picked on the wrong bloke.

Also i can change my original scenario to make damn sure the Soviets will get their white backsides smacked from the Spanish border right back to the Ural Mountains.

Last edited by Roddoss72; 19 Apr 12 at 03:05..
  #1573  
Old 19 Apr 12, 03:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
The West would only need one ...

But seriously, you're not giving any credence to Hairog's rubbish?

The Soviet spy network in the West would disintegrate the minute they knew of Stalins plans for aggressive war. That is not why they signed up, not what they believed in.
And on the other side, with the very porous borders of 45-46, defectors would be absolutely flooding into the West - who on earth would want to go through 41-45 again?
As this is a work of fiction, so long as hairog doesn't employ Alien Spacebats, I'm fine with it. Remember where Kim Philby and friends actually took refuge? (okay, they were plonkers, but still, they went willingly.)

The question arises, do you subject other "third world war" fiction to the same level of scrutiny and reality checking, Mr Bond, James Bond?
  #1574  
Old 19 Apr 12, 05:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
As this is a work of fiction, so long as hairog doesn't employ Alien Spacebats,

He's not far off that IMO ...


Quote:
I'm fine with it. Remember where Kim Philby and friends actually took refuge? (okay, they were plonkers, but still, they went willingly.)
I don't doubt the spies. What I doubt is:
a. how many there were
b. their 'loyalty' towards Stalin in the event of war
c. how much useful information they would come across
d. how they would transmit this information

And probly a few more holes

Quote:
The question arises, do you subject other "third world war" fiction to the same level of scrutiny and reality checking, Mr Bond, James Bond?
That's the thing, I'm not interested in fiction, I like history and for alternate history to work it has to be grounded in facts and in probabilities and possibilities.

But I have no objection to an alternate history fiction sub-forum where Hairog can write his fantasies and NAZI fanboys can have their go at writing 'how ve vould haf von ze var'.
  #1575  
Old 19 Apr 12, 10:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
As this is a work of fiction, so long as hairog doesn't employ Alien Spacebats, I'm fine with it. Remember where Kim Philby and friends actually took refuge? (okay, they were plonkers, but still, they went willingly.)
And, Harry Turtledove managed to get a Confederate win using a time machine and giving them AK 47's with unlimited ammunition......


Quote:
The question arises, do you subject other "third world war" fiction to the same level of scrutiny and reality checking, Mr Bond, James Bond?
Depends on the purpose. Is this simple popular fiction? That is, is this a romp with a pre-determined outcome? Or, is it an attempt to write serious alternative history using historical resources?
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