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Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. . |
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04 Apr 12, 15:24
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ACG Forums - General Staff
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Real Name: Gerry Proudfoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In my castle by the sea.
Posts: 15,239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain General
I don't think thats how it works in the US Army.
I've personally known several tankers (officers and enlisted) and they all told me the newest and lowest ranking member of the tank crew was the driver, which is the position all US Army enlisted tankers start at.
You then worked your way up to loader, then gunner, then tank commander.
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Well,... in my day the troopers got assigned depending on the needs of the army. After basic training you went off to the armour school and your course was assigned either 'driver' or 'gunner' training. The loaders were usually surplus gunners or drivers waiting for their course as gunners (they could wait a year or so and take other courses as availability permitted).
After about a year in the regiment you could be sent off for additional training either by request or order as determined by the squadron OC. It was common practice to find Canadian troopers qualified to drive every sort of track or AFV in the army and be trained as a gunner as well as having the recce course under their belts within 3 years of joining the regiment. At that point the troopers got their "corporals", if not before. Then came JLC courses so you could reach Master Corporal and off you went on your way up the ranks.
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The Purist
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.
Last edited by The Purist; 04 Apr 12 at 17:23..
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06 Apr 12, 11:23
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ACG Forums - canis administrationem
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Real Name: Gary C
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Posts: 19,181
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When I was an LT back in the early `80s, a new troop coming into an existing crew usually went to the loader's position first. That way the TC and gunner could keep an eye on him while he got trained up to speed.
Even on the M60 series, the loader would be up in the left side turret hatch most of the time, observing his sector. When he got his own MG on the M1 series that made even more sense.
The loader maintains the coax MG, the turret, and the ammo.
The loader is commonly dismounted to act as a ground guide when moving in tight spaces and to man an OP or LP when in a defensive position.
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Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.
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06 Apr 12, 20:45
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterZero
If that kid gets anywhere close that breech when the main gun fires, he can kiss his skull goodbye.
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Wouldn't the cannon have a recoil guard like the Abrams? They do use the same cannon.
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14 Apr 12, 22:15
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Real Name: Tom Lee
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NH
Posts: 4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain General
Actually, I believe the driver is the low man in a tank crew.
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I was a tanker for 21 years in the USMC and the US Army Guard and the junior man on the tank was the loader.
Quote:
Wouldn't the cannon have a recoil guard like the Abrams? They do use the same cannon.
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The only recoil guard on the Abrams is on the TC side
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15 Apr 12, 18:40
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 11,205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624
Wouldn't the cannon have a recoil guard like the Abrams? They do use the same cannon.
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If the recoil guard was on the loader's side then it's logical to assume it would interfere with the loading of the main gun. He needs all the room he can get in there but that breech is death if he's not paying attention.
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"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
--Frederick II, King of Prussia
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18 Apr 12, 18:38
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 11,205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greasel_burger
You can see why the russians use autoloaders on their 125mm guns, the 120mm is pretty much the practical limit for a human loader.
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The Americans believe that a physically strong 18 year old will always be faster and infinitely smarter than the best auto-loader. That's why the continue resisting installing the auto-loader decades after the Russians have adopted it.
The Russian auto-loaders very in quality, some of them had very slow reload rates that were unacceptable. Also, the T-72 auto-loader was responsible for very tragic accidents because it would grab a crewman's arm and amputate it attempting to ram it down the breech.
However, I think they will always have a strong case for eliminating crew members and making the crew just 3 (in the future maybe just 2?) people because in wartime conditions unfortunately tanks will get penetrated and people inside killed and wounded. American Sherman tanks in WWII often went into combat with just 3 crewmen instead of 5 because so many guys had gotten killed and wounded there weren't enough replacements. An ideal tank is not labor-intensive and requires few crewmen.
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"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
--Frederick II, King of Prussia
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19 Apr 12, 19:37
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Real Name: Chris
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: WV
Posts: 1,605
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Early autoloaders on T-64 were inadequately shielded from the crew, but tales of arm-eating autoloaders are largely a myth. Every tank is labor-intensive, and tankers perform many more duties besides maintenance; dropping a crewman is hotly debated for the increased workload that would necessarily be forced on the remaining men. Some countries have decided that the tradeoff is worth it, and some hitherto have not. 
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22 Apr 12, 20:36
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Real Name: Ross
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogDodger
Early autoloaders on T-64 were inadequately shielded from the crew, but tales of arm-eating autoloaders are largely a myth. Every tank is labor-intensive, and tankers perform many more duties besides maintenance; dropping a crewman is hotly debated for the increased workload that would necessarily be forced on the remaining men. Some countries have decided that the tradeoff is worth it, and some hitherto have not. 
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To be fair on the T-64, it was really the first mass produced autoloader.
On the other hand, autoloaders have never overtaken the reputation for eating the gunner.
Personally, i do think right now, there is no replacement for a crack loader. On the other hand, autoloaders do represent a vision of the future.
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Who we are is but a stepping stone to what we may become.
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26 Apr 12, 20:23
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Real Name: Blake
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chillin In the Artic Praries
Posts: 1,906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 737tanker
I was a tanker for 21 years in the USMC and the US Army Guard and the junior man on the tank was the loader.
The only recoil guard on the Abrams is on the TC side
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In Canada they are often the driver, then they are easily under the crew commanders supervision and guidance. The Loader or the Guy-In-Back are usually the 1st to demount for whatever reason and usually have some experience in them. I can't Recall if the gunner or the GIB have more experience. both have important duties that they have to do.
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God didn’t create evil. Evil is the result of when man does not have God's love in his heart.It's the cold when there is no heat.The darkness that comes when there is no light
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26 Apr 12, 21:02
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: ...
Posts: 15,442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogDodger
Early autoloaders on T-64 were inadequately shielded from the crew, but tales of arm-eating autoloaders are largely a myth. '....'
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Yeah I've read about this several times, is there any practical reason how or why such a story started spreading?
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"In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
Ernest Hemingway.
First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure. - Mark Twain.
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