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Warfare Through the Ages Roman, Greek, Japanese, etc. Topics cover all manner of pre-modern warfare and empire-building and crushing.

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  #1  
Old 14 Apr 12, 14:09
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Exclamation Misconception on the Renaissance...

I've been always thaught that the birth of the Renaissance was due to the fall of Constantinople in 1453.
This was of course prior to my more knowledgable years when I truly became fascinated by history and did research on various historical subjects - in detail.



It soon struck me that what I've been taught and learned was entirely wrong. The Fall of Constantinople only contributed a tiny amount to the Renaissance. The period of 'rebirth' in Western Europe was already in full swing by 1453.
This intellectual rebirth had already started in the late 12th century thanks to the weakening of the once highly advanced society of Al Andalus in Spain on the one hand (Reconquista) and the 3rd Crusade on the other hand...the evidence for this: the birth of Universities all across Europe. Bologna, Oxford, Parma, Sorbonne, Arezzo, Salerno etc...

So in short, teachers and educational institutions: instead of focussing on the Fall of Constantinople in dealing with the Renaissance, start paying some attention on the highly progressive Moorish civilization that occupied Spain in the 9th and 10th century and the subsequent Reconquista!



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  #2  
Old 14 Apr 12, 14:33
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Not only that, but Muslim influence in southern and northern Italy by Mediterranean trade played a huge role as well.

Not to mention the religious roots of the Renaissance primarily in the North and Central areas of Europe, with the developments in humanistic ideals.
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Old 14 Apr 12, 15:59
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The fall of Constantinople represented the destruction of the eastern bulwark against encroachment from the east, and the main threat then was Islam, though by that time it had been destroyed in Spain.

Sincerley,
M
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Old 16 Apr 12, 06:46
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Originally Posted by Stratego View Post
...The Fall of Constantinople only contributed a tiny amount to the Renaissance. The period of 'rebirth' in Western Europe was already in full swing by 1453.

I agree that by the time of the fall of Constantinople, the West had already undergone a significant recovery in terms of humanistic culture, but that should not take away from the fact that the Eastern Roman Empire contributed to this recovery. Scholars from Byzantium had been coming over to the west in anticipation of the eventual fall of Constantinople. We would know very little about ancient Greek and Roman history, drama, philosophy if not for the preservation of these works by these scholars.

I suggest looking at the following book which described the process,
http://www.amazon.com/Sailing-Byzant.../dp/0553803816
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Old 16 Apr 12, 11:36
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Originally Posted by Barca View Post
I agree that by the time of the fall of Constantinople, the West had already undergone a significant recovery in terms of humanistic culture, but that should not take away from the fact that the Eastern Roman Empire contributed to this recovery. Scholars from Byzantium had been coming over to the west in anticipation of the eventual fall of Constantinople. We would know very little about ancient Greek and Roman history, drama, philosophy if not for the preservation of these works by these scholars.

I suggest looking at the following book which described the process,
http://www.amazon.com/Sailing-Byzant.../dp/0553803816
There is truth in what you are saying and also in what Stratego stated as well. Having actually gone to school in Italy I distinctly recall that many different entities set the stage for the Rinascimento; being Italian I prefer the Italian term after all Florence is in Italy.
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Old 17 Apr 12, 07:09
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Originally Posted by Stratego View Post
This intellectual rebirth had already started in the late 12th century thanks to the weakening of the once highly advanced society of Al Andalus in Spain on the one hand (Reconquista) and the 3rd Crusade on the other hand...the evidence for this: the birth of Universities all across Europe. Bologna, Oxford, Parma, Sorbonne, Arezzo, Salerno etc...
Did Al Andalus have any Universities?


Dunno, but I think Latin Christendom maybe should get a little credit for starting the Renaissance itself.
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Old 17 Apr 12, 12:01
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Did Al Andalus have any Universities?


Dunno, but I think Latin Christendom maybe should get a little credit for starting the Renaissance itself.
Al-Andalus deserves a LOT of credit, but I agree that we shouldn't totally disregard the equally enormous contributions of Byzantium and Latin Christendom.

Watch the PBS documentary:

"Cities of Light: Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain"
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Last edited by Wellington95; 17 Apr 12 at 12:45..
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Old 17 Apr 12, 16:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Did Al Andalus have any Universities?


Dunno, but I think Latin Christendom maybe should get a little credit for starting the Renaissance itself.
I don't want to give much credit to the West during the Dark Ages...the West was intellectually backwards in the 9th-12th centuries. The East - Byzantium included - was not!
If any religion nowdays was as progressive as the Islam in the 9th - 11th century, I, as atheist, would promptly become a monk



Greets,
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Old 17 Apr 12, 18:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratego View Post
I don't want to give much credit to the West during the Dark Ages...the West was intellectually backwards in the 9th-12th centuries. The East - Byzantium included - was not!
If any religion nowdays was as progressive as the Islam in the 9th - 11th century, I, as atheist, would promptly become a monk



Greets,
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At one of our local castles, Kidwelly, I heard a lecture on medieval first aid. While the West had accidentally found out that by boiling bandages in Thyme, you effectively sterilise your field dressing, those pesky Muslims were writing books on Pediactric medicine. The difference in technology was remarkable imo.
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Old 18 Apr 12, 03:03
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Isn't the fall of of Constantinople more a convenient date to mark the end of the middle-ages.

The various origins of the rennaissance would be much harder to pin-point.
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Old 18 Apr 12, 06:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratego View Post
I don't want to give much credit to the West during the Dark Ages...the West was intellectually backwards in the 9th-12th centuries. The East - Byzantium included - was not!
If any religion nowdays was as progressive as the Islam in the 9th - 11th century, I, as atheist, would promptly become a monk



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Yes, but how does that explain how Al-Andalus contributed to the (European) Renaissance?

There doesn't seem to be much Moorish influence here





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Old 18 Apr 12, 06:17
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The twelfth-century Andalusian philosopher Ibn Rushd (Averroes) for example, was responsible for reintroducing Aristotle into Europe.
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Old 18 Apr 12, 06:28
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Yes, but how does that explain how Al-Andalus contributed to the (European) Renaissance?
To answer my own question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_...of_Translators

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_t...e_12th_century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaiss...e_12th_century

Still I wonder when Roger Bacon or Thomas Aquinas were translated into Arabic or Greek.
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Old 18 Apr 12, 10:28
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Yes, but how does that explain how Al-Andalus contributed to the (European)


The arab world had its own issues with fundamentalists who were opposed to secular learning. As Colin Wells stated:

"As reason was marginalized, arabic science fell into stagnation. Even today the arab world has produced no large-scale history of its own creative contributions to science, once the glory of the arab enlightenment."
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Old 18 Apr 12, 13:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratego View Post

It soon struck me that what I've been taught and learned was entirely wrong. The Fall of Constantinople only contributed a tiny amount to the Renaissance. The period of 'rebirth' in Western Europe was already in full swing by 1453.
This intellectual rebirth had already started in the late 12th century thanks to the weakening of the once highly advanced society of Al Andalus in Spain on the one hand (Reconquista) and the 3rd Crusade on the other hand...the evidence for this: the birth of Universities all across Europe. Bologna, Oxford, Parma, Sorbonne, Arezzo, Salerno etc...
Yep the fall of constantinople was basically jus tto symbolise the threat that the islam culture was posing, i believe the renaissance started shortly after classic liberalism came into play and the age of enlightenment and humanism?
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