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  #1  
Old 09 Apr 12, 15:25
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Blast Rocks Athens As Civil Unrest Grows

Welcome to Europe 2012:

A powerful bomb blast has rocked the Greek capital, gutting a government building in the latest show of violence ahead of critical national elections.

Police in Athens said the early-morning blast caused extensive damage to the building, housing the government's Public Sector Reform Ministry.

The blast comes less than a week after a similar attack targeted the office of Costas Simitis, a former prime minister credited with bringing Greece into to Europe's single currency fold in 2001.

Days later, a 77-year-old pensioner shot himself dead in daylight outside Parliament, saying his debts had left him no way out .

Unemployment has surged to over 20%; one in five Greeks have been made homeless; crime has increased by a whopping 125% in the last year alone; and suicides, the cruellest possible toll exacted from the Greek crisis, have doubled.

Full article here:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/blast-rocks...141906782.html
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  #2  
Old 10 Apr 12, 01:00
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Two years ago, the people that tried to tell everyone that this was coming were called every name in the book.
I know, I was one of them.

I think the only question now is, how long before the rest of the PIIGS are in the same situation?
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Old 10 Apr 12, 04:12
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EU is in jeaporady, and bitterness about old memories of Nazi Germany occupying Greece is surfacing in Greek press.
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Old 10 Apr 12, 12:31
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Originally Posted by Lance88 View Post
EU is in jeaporady, and bitterness about old memories of Nazi Germany occupying Greece is surfacing in Greek press.
Those Greeks didn't mind borrowing German money -- they only object to paying it back. It's as if they believe that they're owed debt relief. I wonder how they came by that belief?
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Old 10 Apr 12, 14:46
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Those Greeks didn't mind borrowing German money -- they only object to paying it back. It's as if they believe that they're owed debt relief. I wonder how they came by that belief?
I'm afraid the Greeks, like every other nationality, are not a hive mind single entity. Plenty of people who paid their taxes (ok, in Greece only one or two guys did this, but PIIGS overall) and didn't borrow a dime have found themselves on extremely hard times over incompetent governments and electoralist policies.
I assure you the majority of portuguese citizens don't feel the country shouldn't have to pay borrowed money. They are just not enthusiastic over drastic pay cuts, massive unemployment and more taxes.
If the PIIGS citizens have to be 100% accountable for what their government did, all the US citizens raging about Obama should be silent and accept what Obama does is what they do.

As for this crisis being entirely PIIGS fault as many say... I won't even go into that, don't want to die young from stress.
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Old 10 Apr 12, 16:11
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
I'm afraid the Greeks, like every other nationality, are not a hive mind single entity. Plenty of people who paid their taxes (ok, in Greece only one or two guys did this, but PIIGS overall) and didn't borrow a dime have found themselves on extremely hard times over incompetent governments and electoralist policies.
I assure you the majority of portuguese citizens don't feel the country shouldn't have to pay borrowed money. They are just not enthusiastic over drastic pay cuts, massive unemployment and more taxes.
If the PIIGS citizens have to be 100% accountable for what their government did, all the US citizens raging about Obama should be silent and accept what Obama does is what they do.

As for this crisis being entirely PIIGS fault as many say... I won't even go into that, don't want to die young from stress.
He doesn't have a clue Castro mate. I wouldn't worry about it.

We all know it's got sweet F.A. to do with just 'borrowing German money' .. but there's some on here who think if you keep trotting out the same old lines over and over .. that means it's true.

I feel for the Portuguese and the Irish (I'm on an Irish political forum and it's depressing reading, but the members there are amongst the best informed and post politically savvy people I've come across) and all those countries affected most by the whole sorry mess.
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Old 10 Apr 12, 17:01
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Originally Posted by Tuck's Luck View Post
He doesn't have a clue Castro mate. I wouldn't worry about it.

We all know it's got sweet F.A. to do with just 'borrowing German money' .. but there's some on here who think if you keep trotting out the same old lines over and over .. that means it's true.

I feel for the Portuguese and the Irish (I'm on an Irish political forum and it's depressing reading, but the members there are amongst the best informed and post politically savvy people I've come across) and all those countries affected most by the whole sorry mess.
Indeed but I've given up arguing with these morons-if they want to think that and then gripe about how all Americans (or fill in the nationality) are stereotyped well let them wallow in their ignorance.
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Old 10 Apr 12, 17:17
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
I'm afraid the Greeks, like every other nationality, are not a hive mind single entity. Plenty of people who paid their taxes (ok, in Greece only one or two guys did this, but PIIGS overall) and didn't borrow a dime have found themselves on extremely hard times over incompetent governments and electoralist policies.
And who voted for those politicians? Who approved of those policies? Who condemned the figures who advised against the excessive pork that long coated Greece's budgets -- like hosting the 2004 Summer Olympics? Those bonds won't be relived for another nineteen years in all likelihood -- but they just had to host those Olympics, didn't they. Last time I checked, Greece wasn't some banana republic with a tin-plated dictator in charge: Greece's citizens actively choose and support the figures who will lead in her political arena. And all of those public projects, well, now the bill has come due. Whose to blame for that? Did someone put a gun to the Greeks' heads and compel them to borrow for prestige projects? Spare me the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Ever since the first Papandaeou arrived on the scene, ie the current prime minister;s grandfather in the 1950's, Greek voters have had a hankering for big words, big ideas, and big promises. Greek voters have long enjoyed form over substance. So if not Greek voters, then pray tell, who is to blame for Greece's current fiscal mess?

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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
They are just not enthusiastic over drastic pay cuts, massive unemployment and more taxes.
If the PIIGS citizens have to be 100% accountable for what their government did, all the US citizens raging about Obama should be silent and accept what Obama does is what they do.
And if we're stupid enough to vote for that fool again, then we're going to get what we deserve. We might whinge about it to high heaven, but it won't change the fact that all bills come due, whether they were assumed to buy worthy investments, or pure crap. The debt will still be the same.

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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
As for this crisis being entirely PIIGS fault as many say... I won't even go into that, don't want to die young from stress.
The crises within the PIIGS is the PIIGS' doing: the crises experienced outside the PIIGS is not. They chose to lend to to the PIIGS, even when the smart money expressed serious doubts, so as far as I'm concerned, the lenders are just as caught as the borrowers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuck's Luck
We all know it's got sweet F.A. to do with just 'borrowing German money' .. but there's some on here who think if you keep trotting out the same old lines over and over .. that means it's true.
Are you suggesting that PIIGS' current fiscal troubles weren't caused by excessive borrowing, and in the case of Greece, borrowing to pay for Keynesian job-pads? Pray tell, Miss Jennie, what has caused these troubles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joea
Indeed but I've given up arguing with these morons-if they want to think that and then gripe about how all Americans (or fill in the nationality) are stereotyped well let them wallow in their ignorance.
Another country heard from, arguing that there's such a thing as a free lunch.
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Old 11 Apr 12, 03:13
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
The crises within the PIIGS is the PIIGS' doing: the crises experienced outside the PIIGS is not. They chose to lend to to the PIIGS, even when the smart money expressed serious doubts, so as far as I'm concerned, the lenders are just as caught as the borrowers.
Lending was not state/state but private/private. Government failures were to not control excessive capital flux.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that PIIGS' current fiscal troubles weren't caused by excessive borrowing, and in the case of Greece, borrowing to pay for Keynesian job-pads? Pray tell, Miss Jennie, what has caused these troubles?
#1 Borrowing to pay job in boom time is not Keynesian.

#2 Ireland has a 32% debt ratio (vs around 60%sFrance, UK and Germany) pre 2008 crisis and was running a surplus not a deficit. Datas are available. Not using them is displaying exactly the kind of behavior Joea spoke about.
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Old 11 Apr 12, 12:36
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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
Lending was not state/state but private/private. Government failures were to not control excessive capital flux.
Specifically with regards to Greece, the capital flows were private-to-private, private-to-state, and state-to-state. Lending to Greece and Greek concerns was a broad-spectrum endeavor.

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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
#1 Borrowing to pay job in boom time is not Keynesian.
According to Nobel laureate Paul Krugman, it is. Then again, I've read Krugman's textbooks (when he's not penning tripe for the New York Times he's teaching economics at Princeton University) and since he's shown his basic mathematical skills to be suspect, I've long ago discounted his economic statements, as well. What borrowing to grow public payrolls 30% over four years is is stupid -- and that's what Greece did.

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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
#2 Ireland has a 32% debt ratio (vs around 60%sFrance, UK and Germany) pre 2008 crisis and was running a surplus not a deficit. Datas are available. Not using them is displaying exactly the kind of behavior Joea spoke about.
You want data? How about this:

Quote:
An International Monetary Fund (IMF) report in 2000 contended that Irish property prices were almost certainly heading for a collapse in the medium term, since "no industrial country in the last 20 years had experienced price increases on the scale of Ireland without suffering a subsequent fall". House prices went on to more than double between 2000 and 2006.

Wikipedia
So Ireland's troubles were foreseen. Does property values doubling within six years sound like a sign of a healthy and balanced economy to you? Why didn't Irish authorities tightened capital in an effort to contain, or at least slow down, the formation of Ireland's real estate bubble? Why were they sitting on their hands following the IMF's warning? Why was Ireland building 75,000 housing units a year from 2000 to 2006 -- in a country numbering no more than five million souls?

You, Mr Metryll, have long been known to cherry-pick your "data" to support your biases. My "behavior" is driven by facts, examined en toto, not cherry-picked nine-ways-from-Sunday, not "money is the root of all evil" crap learned in college. So if the hand-wringing crowd doesn't like my "behavior," then I know that I'm doing something right.
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Old 11 Apr 12, 13:58
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Specifically with regards to Greece, the capital flows were private-to-private, private-to-state, and state-to-state. Lending to Greece and Greek concerns was a broad-spectrum endeavor.
You were arguing about PIIGS and Ireland show clearly that all countries dont share same economic sitauation.

Quote:
According to Nobel laureate Paul Krugman, it is. Then again, I've read Krugman's textbooks (when he's not penning tripe for the New York Times he's teaching economics at Princeton University) and since he's shown his basic mathematical skills to be suspect, I've long ago discounted his economic statements, as well. What borrowing to grow public payrolls 30% over four years is is stupid -- and that's what Greece did.
Krugman is one Keynesian among others. I did not read his book but I never read him arguing about increase of public payroll as Keneysian, but I do read him about being a Democrat. Once again Keynes is neither left or right(Romney economic advisor is George Mankiw, a New Keynesian like Krugman, and a Republican).

Quote:
You want data? How about this:

So Ireland's troubles were foreseen. Does property values doubling within six years sound like a sign of a healthy and balanced economy to you? Why didn't Irish authorities tightened capital in an effort to contain, or at least slow down, the formation of Ireland's real estate bubble? Why were they sitting on their hands following the IMF's warning? Why was Ireland building 75,000 housing units a year from 2000 to 2006 -- in a country numbering no more than five million souls?
And your data say the same thing I told you : government failure was due to act not debt as in Greece.

Quote:
You, Mr Metryll, have long been known to cherry-pick your "data" to support your biases.
Cherry picking involve ignore real data. Who state that PIIGS are identical, you or me ?

Quote:
My "behavior" is driven by facts, examined en toto, not cherry-picked nine-ways-from-Sunday, not "money is the root of all evil" crap learned in college.
I dont read Sunday, but do read Krugman columns in NY Times. I left college decades ago. Finally your belief that I ever argued "money is the root of all evil" exist only in your mind.

Quote:
So if the hand-wringing crowd doesn't like my "behavior," then I know that I'm doing something right.
You argued that Joea was wrong, I show you that your argument was incorrect. Now if your happy being incorrect, you simply support his point.
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Old 11 Apr 12, 17:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
You were arguing about PIIGS and Ireland show clearly that all countries dont share same economic sitauation.
But their current troubles show the same causation: poorly thought out government policy motivated by strictly political concerns. Case in point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
And your data say the same thing I told you : government failure was due to act not debt as in Greece.


Have you ever heard of "monetary theory"? Government ministers and/or central bankers, instead of borrowing or taxing more, stimulate Keynesian "aggregate demand" reducing other parties' cost of borrowing. They sit on interest rates. They keep "money supply" (M) and "velocity" (V) high, higher than a lot of classical or Keynesian economists would like. Companies borrow, expand plant, hire new people, and thus is aggregate demand stimulated. With regards to Ireland, construction was a major employer, as were associated industries, like law, accounting, etc, etc. Rising real estate values, increased velocities of properties, more and more new construction: that all translated into more employment -- which stimulated aggregated demand. So while the means was hardly Keynesian, the end was, and it was expressed in the language invented by John Maynard himself.

Didn't you study any economics?

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Old 11 Apr 12, 21:20
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Time to start watching Italy?

That's the biggie, not Greece, and by big I mean the 8th largest economy in the world.
And, shockingly, 20% of the economy is rumored to be Black Market.
Black Market... now that's something I hadn't thought I would hear about again, hasn't been a common itme since the collapse of Communism, for Pete's sake!

In Greece, 25% of the economy is "Black Market" stuff. What do they mean by that?
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Old 12 Apr 12, 01:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
But their current troubles show the same causation: poorly thought out government policy motivated by strictly political concerns. Case in point:
This was not your point :

"Are you suggesting that PIIGS' current fiscal troubles weren't caused by excessive borrowing, and in the case of Greece, borrowing to pay for Keynesian job-pads? Pray tell, Miss Jennie, what has caused these troubles?"

Ireland problem never was about excessive state borrowing but is result of private debt turned to state one. Would Ireland governrment had let AIB sunk, there would have been no I in original PIGS.

Quote:
Have you ever heard of "monetary theory"? Government ministers and/or central bankers, instead of borrowing or taxing more, stimulate Keynesian "aggregate demand" reducing other parties' cost of borrowing. They sit on interest rates. They keep "money supply" (M) and "velocity" (V) high, higher than a lot of classical or Keynesian economists would like. Companies borrow, expand plant, hire new people, and thus is aggregate demand stimulated. With regards to Ireland, construction was a major employer, as were associated industries, like law, accounting, etc, etc. Rising real estate values, increased velocities of properties, more and more new construction: that all translated into more employment -- which stimulated aggregated demand. So while the means was hardly Keynesian, the end was, and it was expressed in the language invented by John Maynard himself.
In what does this relate with Irish state debt ? Has the house bubble resulted in direct Irish debt increase ? Has the goverment acted, that is prevented the bubble to not appear ?

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Didn't you study any economics?
Dont your degree in economy allow you to make the difference between private and state debt ?
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Old 12 Apr 12, 05:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
Time to start watching Italy?

That's the biggie, not Greece, and by big I mean the 8th largest economy in the world.
And, shockingly, 20% of the economy is rumored to be Black Market.
Black Market... now that's something I hadn't thought I would hear about again, hasn't been a common itme since the collapse of Communism, for Pete's sake!

In Greece, 25% of the economy is "Black Market" stuff. What do they mean by that?
Spain first methinks.

Watched the Spanish Ambassador to the UK on Newsnight last night, and he was rolling out the usual platitudes - with the Spanish finance minister 'assuring' everyone Spain would not require a bailout - echoes of the Greeks, Irish and Portuguese - who all said the same thing .. before finding themselves in an impossible situation.

Half of all under 25s in Spain are unemployed and there is already civil unrest there .... not as reported as the Greek situation but it's happening.

Spain will be requiring a bailout before long as sure as eggs is eggs.
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