Riflemen: Army vs. Marines - Page 8 - Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History

101combatvet · #**106** 07 Apr 12, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nichols

A little point...I know you guys know this but some may not.

The Officer should be controlling his Squadleaders, Squadleaders controllin the Fireteam leaders and Fireteam leaders control the Soldiers/Marines. We have all seen too many times where the different levels of leadership tries to micro-manage two to three levels down.....sometimes to the individual level.

That is the way it should work. The old saying... "stay in your lane" comes to mind.

TacCovert4 · #**107** 07 Apr 12, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nichols

A little point...I know you guys know this but some may not.

The Officer should be controlling his Squadleaders, Squadleaders controllin the Fireteam leaders and Fireteam leaders control the Soldiers/Marines. We have all seen too many times where the different levels of leadership tries to micro-manage two to three levels down.....sometimes to the individual level.

Quite true, I was just generalizing a statement that one of my former squad leaders that went officer told me: "An Officer's best weapon is his Marines". Naturally nobody higher than the squad leader should ever be directing individual Marines unless it's a very special circumstance (I will give 1 level of downward mobility for micromanagement).

smallvillekalel · #**108** 07 Apr 12, 18:27

I think trying to decide the debate of accuracy vs. firepower is like comparing apples and oranges. Guns are usefull tools. Each with it's own specific duty. A rifle and a light machine gun have seperate duties to perform. The closest you can come to comparing the two, IMHO, would be a M-16/A1 vs /A2. The A1 provides more firepower and the A2 more accuracy. The US Army switch to the A2 says alot for the accuracy camp. However it could also be seen as a compromise when considering the 3 round burst capability(which in my opinion is the best thing since sliced bread). So, with 3 round burst, you get a good compromise of the two, and accuracy essentially wins the day when it comes to rifles only. The debate of marksmanship vs firepower seems silly to me since the two are so inherently different in application.

101combatvet · #**109** 07 Apr 12, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by smallvillekalel

The US Army switch to the A2 says alot for the accuracy camp. However it could also be seen as a compromise when considering the 3 round burst capability(which in my opinion is the best thing since sliced bread). So, with 3 round burst, you get a good compromise of the two, and accuracy essentially wins the day when it comes to rifles only. The debate of marksmanship vs firepower seems silly to me since the two are so inherently different in application.

When I first heard of the switch to the A2 I spoke to a MAJ working on the project. I was thinking WTF.... three round burst? The MAJ explained to me about guys that often froze up on the trigger. I asked how the he'll would we be able to do an Australian Peel?

TacCovert4 · #**110** 07 Apr 12, 20:22

Australian Peel? That's a new one for me....or perhaps an old one.

andrewza · #**111** 08 Apr 12, 01:43

I never understood why they removed the. Full auto from the M16. There are times where full auto is needed.

The Land · #**112** 08 Apr 12, 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TacCovert4

Australian Peel? That's a new one for me....or perhaps an old one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_Peel

btw, if anyone knows of references to it in field manuals / articles / anywhere, do add them to the Wikipedia article!

(On the whole infantry tactics aren't well-covered on Wikipedia, more resources on them are always good...)

101combatvet · #**113** 08 Apr 12, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewza

I never understood why they removed the. Full auto from the M16. There are times where full auto is needed.

The big Army was concerned about guys laying on the trigger and blowing off their wads. Advent of the SAW also changed the make up of the fire team. SOF started their own R&D efforts because their needs differ so much from the rest of the Army. Now it seems to make better sense then when the idea was first concocted.

101combatvet · #**114** 08 Apr 12, 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TacCovert4

Australian Peel? That's a new one for me....or perhaps an old one.

More of an advanced patrolling technique. I'm sure that Recon Teams use it.

ipser · #**115** 08 Apr 12, 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by TacCovert4

Australian Peel? That's a new one for me....or perhaps an old one.

Something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P5cQCkwwt0

They don't sound Australian, though.

101combatvet · #**116** 09 Apr 12, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ipser

Something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P5cQCkwwt0

They don't sound Australian, though.

Yes... this one practiced in an echelon formation.

Nichols · #**117** 09 Apr 12, 10:57

Here is another example of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r8jKKeJpqo

The idea behind it is to keep rounds going down range on a contact front event. No more than two peels before everyone beats feet to the last rally point.

The individual empty one magazine before peeling, the guy behind does the same.

The tail end charlie is supposed to have a 10 second fused claymore that he slams in the ground as he is peeling.

101combatvet · #**118** 09 Apr 12, 12:03

Not bad... but with full auto and a little practice the time could be greatly reduced.

slick_miester · #**119** 09 Apr 12, 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TacCovert4

I agree that officers shouldn't be shooting as much as controlling their soldiers/Marines. However, it is nice to know that your Captain can at least shoot as well as you.....since he's telling you to do it.

It's comforting to know, however, that your CC can send lead downrange effectively if you're ever faced with a "broken arrow" scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TacCovert4

And yes, there are a number of Marines with the dreaded "pizza box".....and We give them unholy crap about it every time we see them.....those of us with wreathed rifles that is.

Get one of these:

It cuts down on time spent qualifying annually.

ipser · #**120** 09 Apr 12, 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101combatvet

Not bad... but with full auto and a little practice the time could be greatly reduced.

"Good job guys." What about the bloke who droped his mag?

But, seriously, it's not obvious from these videos that the 3 round burst is significantly slower than full auto and you could see them using the time between bursts to correct their aim.