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  #31  
Old 07 Apr 12, 22:49
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In the years since World War II, there have been many instances of a flight crew flying their plane to enemy territory in order to surrender themselves and the plane. Given that this incident is said to have happened when the Allies were advancing across Europe towards Germany from two (three?) sides, this could have been a similar attempt.


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  #32  
Old 08 Apr 12, 04:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon_G View Post
Hi Dennis, I appreciate you having a serious dialogue with me even if we disagree.

I don't think this is for alternate timelines at all. A real aircraft was downed there. Real bodies were pulled from the water in Luftwaffe uniforms. Many years later Ruben P Whittemore dived the wreck which is still there and recovered a constructor's RMZ plate indicating the aircraft was a Junkers.

I personally have no idea what an RMZ tag is. Whittemore lives in Burlington Vermont. The incident seems from all accounts genuine,

You ask me what i seriously believe. Airspace over the UK was too closely guarded in September 1944 and the only aircraft left capable of penetrating UK airspace were the Arado 243 (by then forced to operate mostly from Norway) and the Do217P which were a handful of prototypes.

Hitler was personally fixated with attacking New York so the likelihood of an attack was not so far fetched as you claim.

The OSS Report from Switzerland of November 1944 indicates Hitler had been preparing a massed artillery attack against the Soviets in October 1944 with Tabun-B to co-inside with a nuclear and nerve gas attack against the UK.

However Hitler was also threatened by USA through Lisbon in July 1944 with an American nuclear attack on Dresden unless Hitler sued for peace within 6 weeks. In August 1944 Churchill threatened a massive anthrax attack against Germany unless Hitler abandoned nuclear weapons.

I would suggest this crash represents Hitler's last roll of the dice before he accepted the need to try and negotiate his way out with the Western Allies.

That is my serious and honest reply.
Not a problem Simon. I enjoyed it too. But your thrust is the delivery of a weapon that didn't exist, a ratzi atomic bomb.

Yes, 'dolphie talked about bombing America/New York, but he also talked about defeating the Soviet Union, Germania and many other things that were nothing more than fantasy and delusion.

I can't see this as an actual attack.

Best regards,
Dennis
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  #33  
Old 08 Apr 12, 06:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
By Septmeber 1944. German units had been pushed back to Hollland. If this happened while Germany still occupied France. OK Not sure how it could get there otherwise...
Actually, significant chunks of France southwest of Paris and south of the Loire were still in German control. The Allies did enough to secure control of those ports and territories they deemed necessary and ignored the rest. The German garrisons isolated by the allies kept a military low profile. But it is more likely that any German aircraft flying a mission to North America would operate from western France than Germany.
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  #34  
Old 08 Apr 12, 11:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Actually, significant chunks of France southwest of Paris and south of the Loire were still in German control. The Allies did enough to secure control of those ports and territories they deemed necessary and ignored the rest. The German garrisons isolated by the allies kept a military low profile. But it is more likely that any German aircraft flying a mission to North America would operate from western France than Germany.
The problem with this type of story,is the only public evidence is by word of mouth and over the years and through the ammount of mouths over that time with possibly many of the original people involved being dead, an original truthful fact becomes so distorted that no one can be sure where the truth ended and the elaberations began!! lcm1
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  #35  
Old 08 Apr 12, 16:41
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Those Nazis never fail to amaze me! With all the resources the US had, they managed to build two different designs of nuclear weapon, both of which weighed around 4,500kg. Yet the Nazis apparently built ones weighing 5kg or less:

Quote:
This bomb is revolutionary in its results, and will completely upset all ordinary precepts of warfare hitherto established. I am sending you, in one group, all those reports on what is called the atom-splitting bomb. It is a fact that in June of 1943, the German Army tried out an utterly new type of weapon against the Russians at a location 150 kilometers southeast of Kursk. Although it was the entire 19th Infantry Regiment of the Russians which was thus attacked, only a few bombs (each round up to 5 kilograms) sufficed to utterly wipe them out to the last man.
Something which it seems still can't be accomplished.


Well that quote certainly convinces me that the Germans had nuclear weapons!
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  #36  
Old 08 Apr 12, 22:27
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One might note that the Bv 222 C-011 and -013 were both flown to the US after capture. It is possible that one or both were crewed in part by Luftwaffe personnel as this was sometimes done with other Paperclip aircraft where the US pilots didn't have enough experiance with the machine or, there simply weren't enough pilots on hand to fly them.
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  #37  
Old 09 Apr 12, 11:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
One might note that the Bv 222 C-011 and -013 were both flown to the US after capture. It is possible that one or both were crewed in part by Luftwaffe personnel as this was sometimes done with other Paperclip aircraft where the US pilots didn't have enough experiance with the machine or, there simply weren't enough pilots on hand to fly them.
No victors in war, only survivors. lcm1
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  #38  
Old 11 Apr 12, 13:32
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A single 4 or 6-engine plane coming all that way to drop two or three bombs?
Big whoop.

The Italians were going to hit us with half a dozen seaplane bombers on a one-way raid in 1943, but the surrender cancelled that one.
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  #39  
Old 11 Apr 12, 16:48
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'Target America' by James Duffy cataloges the various German & Italian plans to attack the US.

http://www.amazon.com/TARGET-AMERICA.../dp/0275966844


Duffy notes that in 1943 the Italians progressed the farthest, making actual preperations for refueling one or more flying boat type bombers by submarine in mid Atlantic. Post 1943 German efforts went as far as writing up lists of requirements and lists of the material actually available plus some concept drawings. At least that is all the documentation Duffy was able to identify. He claimed cross checks of German records failed to turn up any flight plans, reports, flight logs ect... of a four or six engine aircraft mission that reached eyeball range of the US. A 1945 British intelligence report of the German "New York" flight was based on the testimony of a German enlisted ground crewman. That was a dead end for Duffy as collaborating evidence like names of the flight crew, & date did not match any German records available to Duffy, or other researchers he drew from.

Which brings me back to the coastal crash of the OP here. A through search of US military records should turn up at least some indirect evidence of this. More than likely surviving direct reports would be declassified by now. Secondary documents dispatching salvage or investigative units & individual personnel ect... proliferate like dandelions on a lawn & are nearly impossible to completely secure or destroy.

Alternately a search for Canadian or USN/USAAF aircraft losses on or near that date would be usefull.
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  #40  
Old 14 Apr 12, 07:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D1J1 View Post
Not a problem Simon. I enjoyed it too. But your thrust is the delivery of a weapon that didn't exist, a ratzi atomic bomb.

Yes, 'dolphie talked about bombing America/New York, but he also talked about defeating the Soviet Union, Germania and many other things that were nothing more than fantasy and delusion.

I can't see this as an actual attack.

Best regards,
Dennis
For the benefit of everyone here is the original clutch of messages revealing this crash first disclosed on Twelve o'clock high in 1998.

http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php...,33784,quote=1

I understand your unwillingness to accept that the Nazis had a nuclear weapon. I can go back to old posts of mine where I rebuked the theories of Rainer Karlsch myself because I did not accept them and did not understand the physics of the German bomb.

I know a lot of people view me as a radical conspiracy theorist, but the truth is not so long ago I was myself quite unapproachable on the idea of Nazi Germany having nukes.

A conversation with Ed White in USA one day however changed my perceptions and set me on a course of personal research that now deepens my convictions that it did exist. I wont bore you with those reasons now.

I am overwhelmed by the information I have uncovered and yes there are many nonsense claims interwoven with correct ones.

Allow me to put my reply another way:

#1) I have heard one alternate theory that this was possibly a surrender flight.

MY REPLY:

Why bother when a flight to Sweden, Iceland, North Africa, Italy, Spain or Ireland could have effected a surrender just as easily.

Also in a 3-4 man crew very likely of highly motivated Nazi pilots belonging to KG200, it seems unlikely that the whole crew would act in unison. I mention KG200 because the paint scheme itself resembles that used by KG200 on Ju290 aircraft late in the war.

#2) I have heard another suggestion the flight was part of a high level surrender exchange

MY REPLY:

Slightly more plausible except why bother going all the way to USA. Actual surrender talks in Lisbon during 1944 were mentioned by Dornberger in British captivity, secretly recorded by the British and then cited in evidence at Nuremberg. Peace feelers occurred all the time, in Switzerland, the Vatican (1943), Lisbon, Stockholm and in Turkey, even in Romania through Antonescu who tolerated an opposition group in touch with London.

Why would you fly a secret diplomatic mission to USA when a flight to Madrid via Barcelona could achieve the same?

In any case no top ranking Nazi Politician suddenly disappeared like this in Sept 1944. A secret diplomatic mission would have no authority without a senior Nazi present.

I remain unmoved that this was not a nuclear weapon attack. It was too complex of a mission just to deliver high explosives.
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  #41  
Old 14 Apr 12, 07:57
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As the story unfolded:

http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php...,33784,quote=1

In 1998 this innocent enquiry was made on twelve o'clock:

Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Author: Gary Webster
Subject: German Aircraft Wreck off Owl's Head Maine.
Date: Fri Feb 13 16:53:14 1998

Message:

I received this e-mail and though I'd pass it on to this group. Mr. Ruben P. Whittemore claims to have relatives who eye-witnessed this event. What do you think? Seems a little far fetched, but you never know. I've left his e-mail address and mailing address for anyone wanting to ask him further questions. Were both Ju-390's accounted for after the war?

Gary

------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: WREAKAGE OFF OWLS HEAD, MAINE:

FROM: plouise@togethernet.com:

Found RMZ Tag: removed from aircraft motor found two miles southeast of the Owls Head Lighthouse, Maine.

I have a tag which when put together reads: (Note: “?” = unknown letter or number)

• R?Z WURKE Nb 135?34 (Allgemiene) - this word is almost gone due to condition
• JUNK??SM?T??WURKES (Agts: Haan) - this word is in same condition
• FWU ???KE N? 13??34 (Gbs: Fl??g?roberstkommando Rdt.)

Probable plate inscription text:

• RMZ WURKE Nb 135?34 (Allgemiene)
• JUNKERSMOTORWURKES (Agts: Haan)
• FWU WURKE Nb 135?34 (Gbs: Fliegeroberstkommando Rdt.)

Wreck was reported to have been here since September, 44 and reported as a large six motor aircraft with very dark green and black paint. Three bodies were found in area on the 28th of September, 1944 and taken by the U.S. Coast Guard to Rockland Maine Station.

One of the witnesses states he saw one body in German Luftwaffe Signal Corps Uniform, (grey-blue with yellow/brown collor tabs), rank of Hauptmann/Captain?

The FBI, USSS, MI all reported as having told those who had witnessed the crash that it was first a submarine, and later that they better forget what they saw!

I have dived in area and have recovered more parts, and have photos!

Please try to find out if Germans lost a large aircraft about the 17th to 19th of September, 1944 over the Atlantic.

Y.M.O.S.
Ruben Paul Whittemore
P.O. Box H-8
115 South Meadow Drive
Burlington, VT 05401
USA

------------------------------------------------------------
David Brown has since e-posted it elsewhere:

Quote:
Re: XI-B Revisited - New-Clarifications
Posted by: David E. Brown ()
Date: April 30, 2004 01:47PM

Robert,

The following is a thread I pulled off the 12 O’clock High Luftwaffe Discussion Board in 1997. From the description the chap seem to be describing an aircraft such as the BV 222 or Ju 390. Any relationship to what you've described?

It appears that there were lots of strange things going on offshore Maine during the War, and more than lobsters on the water bottom.

Cheers,

David
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  #42  
Old 14 Apr 12, 08:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
One might note that the Bv 222 C-011 and -013 were both flown to the US after capture. It is possible that one or both were crewed in part by Luftwaffe personnel as this was sometimes done with other Paperclip aircraft where the US pilots didn't have enough experiance with the machine or, there simply weren't enough pilots on hand to fly them.
One US acquired Bv222 had so many engine problems (probably sabotage) that it was dispatched by gunfire from a US destroyer in Norwegian waters.

The other may have made it to Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Pensacola FL

It does not explain however the sightings made in September 1944 or the Junkers RMZ tag recovered by a diver from the wreck approx 2.5 miles south of Owl's Head sometime in the mid nineties. I assume the diver was plouise?

Ruben Whittemore lives in Church St Burlington, Vermont and is now 58 years old (in 2012)
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  #43  
Old 14 Apr 12, 08:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon_G View Post
The witnesses were very specific describing a six engined aircraft.
No doubt you've heard "so what" already, but it bears repeating.
Quote:
One should not taint the recollections of witnesses by trying to impose one's own prejudices on the information.
It's not "prejudice" if study of the facts indicate that it was extremely unlikely. Trying to make the naysayers sound unreasonable is a very discredited tactic.
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  #44  
Old 14 Apr 12, 08:34
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Aviation Archaeology in Maine
http://www.mewreckchasers.com/index.html

This gentleman and his group of volunteer "wreck chasers" seem to have a good grasp of what aircraft have gone down in and around Maine over the last century. Nothing appears that supports the claim you cite of a 6 engined aircraft.

However, he might be worth contacting. He almost certainly would have heard rumours and speculation if the story has an substance, even as a local urban legend: admin@mewreckchasers.com
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  #45  
Old 14 Apr 12, 10:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
No doubt you've heard "so what" already, but it bears repeating.

It's not "prejudice" if study of the facts indicate that it was extremely unlikely. Trying to make the naysayers sound unreasonable is a very discredited tactic.
Determining that the witnesses are wrong because you find the implications unlikely is predetermination. That would be unreasonable.
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