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Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

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  #1  
Old 31 Mar 12, 15:19
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Insurgent Groups with Tanks/Aircraft

Does anyone know if any insurgent/guerrilla movements have or had armor or aircraft? I know the Tamil Tigers had a few small planes, and mutinying troops (as in Syria) sometimes have tanks, but does anyone know of any other examples, such as the Viet Cong/Viet Minh, Al Qaeda, etc.? I doubt that it would be easy for them to operate such vehicles (lack of training, spare parts, fuel, maintenance, etc.), so my guess is that very few have any.
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Last edited by BCap; 31 Mar 12 at 18:11.. Reason: Title Error
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  #2  
Old 01 Apr 12, 06:21
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Originally Posted by BCap View Post
Does anyone know if any insurgent/guerrilla movements have or had armor or aircraft? I know the Tamil Tigers had a few small planes, and mutinying troops (as in Syria) sometimes have tanks, but does anyone know of any other examples, such as the Viet Cong/Viet Minh, Al Qaeda, etc.? I doubt that it would be easy for them to operate such vehicles (lack of training, spare parts, fuel, maintenance, etc.), so my guess is that very few have any.
Yes, I think the VC, (although I may be mixing them with the NVA) used old Russian tanks, T-34, T-54, BTR Personnal Carriers, etc. These were mostly used in set piece battles like Khe Sanh and the fall of South Vietnam in '75 following the US withdrawal.
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Old 01 Apr 12, 10:30
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I think it was indeed the NVA who had them.
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Old 01 Apr 12, 13:56
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I believe that the NVA used PT-76 tanks against the Marines at Khe Sanh and against Army Special Forces.
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Old 02 Apr 12, 04:47
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2 incidents come to mind-

1. PFLP acquired T-55 tanks, which the IAF destroyed 4 days prior to the withdrawal from Lebanon:
http://www.iaf.org.il/571-19373-he/IAF.aspx

2. A Hamas attack on "Kerem Shalom" checkpoint, employing several vehicles painted to look Israeli and one BRDM 2 that was confiscated from the P.A and was suppose to be used as evacuation vehicle for kidnapped IDF soldiers/bodies:
http://www.laisrael.net/PageDisplay.asp?Artnum=5958

P.S
Sorry for the Hebrew source, but you know how it is...

Edit:
Do UAV's count? because Hezbollah has/had some:
http://defense-update.com/2006/08/is...ttack-uav.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...crisis-208400/
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Old 02 Apr 12, 05:19
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Originally Posted by Golani View Post
1. PFLP acquired T-55 tanks, which the IAF destroyed 4 days prior to the withdrawal from Lebanon:
http://www.iaf.org.il/571-19373-he/IAF.aspx
]

That would be the work of the Syrians, I suppose?

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Originally Posted by Golani View Post
What the? Tanks I can buy, but UAV's? I smell the Iranians and Syrians here...
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Old 02 Apr 12, 05:20
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Originally Posted by mdbigdee View Post
I believe that the NVA used PT-76 tanks against the Marines at Khe Sanh and against Army Special Forces.
Yes. PTR-76, T-34/54 and several models of the BTR.
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Old 02 Apr 12, 09:48
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Originally Posted by Crackshot View Post
]

That would be the work of the Syrians, I suppose?



What the? Tanks I can buy, but UAV's? I smell the Iranians and Syrians here...
Actually, I have heard of the UAVs. I think it has to do with loading them with explosives and using them as a guided bomb/cruise missile (sort of like what was done with some Hellcats by the U.S. Navy in Korea to attack some bridge or something).
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Old 02 Apr 12, 10:41
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Actually the Partisans under Tito had tanks. The Allies landed some on the coast. The Partisans also had some Axis tanks they captured. This would include Italian and ex-French tanks. Fuel and munitions were landed on the coast or air dropped.

There are some stories that the VC has captured some tanks from the ARVN and buried them in tunnels! Supposedly some were found by tunnel rats! Some depots in Vietnam also had discarded vehicles. I remember one Special Forces Camp had "found" a discarded M-41 tank. It had no engine or tracks but it worked just fine as a pillbox at the main gate! They were still able to fire the main gun and the coax mg.

The Afghan Resistance against the Soviets had all sorts of "captured" vehicles and even artillery. Sometimes the Red Army soldiers sold or traded tanks. The Afghans always had access to drugs and some money. Ex-Afghan Army deserters sometimes drove off in their vehicles.

A major problem with insurgent forces acquiring tanks is they are very vulnerable to air strike!

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  #10  
Old 03 Apr 12, 12:07
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Actually the Partisans under Tito had tanks. The Allies landed some on the coast. The Partisans also had some Axis tanks they captured. This would include Italian and ex-French tanks. Fuel and munitions were landed on the coast or air dropped.
Titos forces received one tank brigade from western allies (with Grant tanks), and one from Soviet (with T-34 tanks). They also received complete squadrons of aircraft (Hurricane and Il-2) from same sources.
But it is not quite correct to put those examples here - at the time partisans grew into regular army.

But even before that, there were examples of partisans using tanks, and aircrafts.

Even at October of 1941, insurgents in Serbia (later to be divided to Partisans and Chetniks) attacked city of Kraljevo with two R-35 tanks.
Tanks were captured after that during battles, and used until there were pare parts. With capitulation of Italy there was more material.

First aircraft were acquired on May 23rd of 1942, when two pilots of Croatian air force flew away with two Potez-25 aircraft to liberated territory.
Several more aircraft were captured after capitulation of Italy.
Nice article here
http://members.tripod.com/~marcin_w/index-jpaf.html
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Old 03 Apr 12, 13:10
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IIRC, the Moroccan Rif rebels had several biplane aircraft piloted by mercenary crews but I don't think they actually saw combat. More kind of flaunting it in front of the Spanish.
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Old 03 Apr 12, 14:16
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Add Stuart tanks to the Partisan line up. I saw a picture of three such being driven off to join Tito. Keep in mind that Tito did not get Soviet equipment until he joined up with the Red Army. Tito got a lot of Italian equipment when the Italians surrendered. Two Italian Divisions even joined up with the Partisans! The British are the ones that gave Tito the best support. The Americans sent some as well.

Tito is supposed to have requested any aid at all from Stalin, but was rebuffed. There just was no Red Aircraft with the range to bring weapons. Tito even asked for a bomber or two to make a one way trip. Tito was having a problem explaining why all the aid was coming from the UK and the US.

One strange thing about the "rising" in Yugoslavia is the Germans did not have to start taking extra measures to fight Partisans until 1943. The Partisans were mainly going after Chetniks.

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  #13  
Old 03 Apr 12, 16:25
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Add Stuart tanks to the Partisan line up. I saw a picture of three such being driven off to join Tito. Keep in mind that Tito did not get Soviet equipment until he joined up with the Red Army. Tito got a lot of Italian equipment when the Italians surrendered. Two Italian Divisions even joined up with the Partisans! The British are the ones that gave Tito the best support. The Americans sent some as well.
Other captured armoured vehicles used by partisans were:
- L3/33 and L6/40 Ansaldo tankette
- Somua S35
- H-39 Hotchkiss

There are some interesting stories regarding use of italian tankettes:
Some of them were captured during January 1942. They were used in attacks on Ustashe positions. Due to lack of fuel, they were carried 10 miles on ox vagon!
Some years later, problems with fuel were still existing - tankettes had to be dug into field, and corn planted over it. With better situation, they were undug and put to use.

56 Stuart tanks were delivered in October of 1944. - at the time, partisans started to fight like regular army - not guerilla.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
One strange thing about the "rising" in Yugoslavia is the Germans did not have to start taking extra measures to fight Partisans until 1943. The Partisans were mainly going after Chetniks.
Except Germans, occupying forces also had:
- Italian army
- Bulgarian army
- NDH (Croatian quisling) army
- Serbian Nedic (quisling) troops
- Chetnik units in italian service (MVAC)
Plus some other formation...



And no, during 1942. partisans mainly went after NDH, not chetniks - take example of Bihac operation.
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Old 04 Apr 12, 10:13
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Yes. PTR-76, T-34/54 and several models of the BTR.
But was NVA an insurgent force or a proper national army?
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Old 04 Apr 12, 10:26
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But was NVA an insurgent force or a proper national army?
The NVA was North Vietnam's regular army. The Viet Cong consisted of South Vietnamese guerrilla fighters.
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