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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > History Library > Alternate Timelines

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Alternate Timelines The great "what if's" of military history.

View Poll Results: Is the WWIII in 1946 Theory as presented Sound?
Absolutely. It is sound in all respects. 0 0%
It has some problems but the merits outweigh them. 8 14.55%
It has some merits, but the problems outweigh them. 18 32.73%
It is unworkable, even with significant help. 29 52.73%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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  #346  
Old 08 Mar 12, 15:49
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Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Soviet developments did not start in earnest until the post-war era, but with the opening of the cold war this became a major effort. Stalin was worried that Moscow would be subjected to bombing efforts like those against Berlin, and in 1951 demanded that a missile system to counter a 1,000 bomber raid be built as quickly as possible. This led to the S-25 Berkut system (SA-1 in NATO terminology), which was designed, developed and deployed in a rush program, to become the first operational SAM system in the world in 1953[citation needed]. SA-1 was only of use for static defence against low-speed targets, but with it in place time was given to develop a follow-on system. This emerged in 1957 as the famous S-75 Dvina (SA-2), a portable system with very high performance which remains in operation into the 2000s. As the nature of the threat did not change, the Soviets, and today Russia, remained at the forefront of SAM development throughout its history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-to-air_missile

So it took the Soviets eight years to come up with a worthy SAM system...

As a crash priority...

War in '46 is looking worse and worse... (For them...)
The problem was the guidance system and not the missile. The Wasserfal could reach the altitude needed and was able to be steered. That is a fact. What it lacked was a reliable guidance system. In our TL we have one. One that did exist but was not mated with the Wasserfal in OTL. In this TL it is.
  #347  
Old 08 Mar 12, 16:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
They sure did a good job at locating the 30 German divisions that came out of the woods near Bastogne in 1944. They had total air superiority and still missed over 30 divisions about to slam into the unsuspecting Americans from the Ardennse.
Nah, but they weren't looking for them. Got too comfortable with Ultra.

Quote:
With no ability or perceived reason for photo recon and supreme confidence in surprise.
No ability for Photo Recce? Hello, I just showed you pictures of Mosquito PRXVI and Spit. PRXXI

The latest model of PR Mozzie, the 34, had the range to fly to India from the UK, just FYI

Quote:
In this case they would also have the chauvinistic attitude that some of you have towards the Soviets.
Oh, you've decided that the Allies are chauvinistic now .. right .. so that can cover all sorts of your idiot fiction. Great.

Quote:
The US along with all modern countries have a long history of being caught by surprise and planning poorly.
In contrast the Soviet Union did such a good job of being prepared for Hitler.

Quote:
To say that they don't is to look at history through the blinders of ignorance.
You have got that down to a tee.
  #348  
Old 08 Mar 12, 19:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
I did not introduce the Leningrad raid to this storyline. You did in error.

Post 895



Again I did not introduce or even suggest this scenario...you did. I wanted to go with the one T.A. suggested.

Post 964




Those were TU-2s not Pe-2s which have a service ceiling of 29,000 feet and the B29 raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were flow at around 31,000 feet and the Tu-2s were decoys firing unguided missiles and were meant to draw the attention of the escorts away from the real threat.

Apparently you can't even get a modicum of your facts straight in your childish critiques of non-relevant old movie made for another project and never intended for this one.
Ok i'll bite on this reply.

Let us assume i stuffed up big time and that the Leningrad raid that i lifted from another storyline you wrote on another forum was never intended for this particular story.

Just how does the Soviets get the Atomic Bomb off the Americans, what one of your so called superspies steals one and ships it back to the USSR as "Medical Supplies".

So if you are correct and that the Leningrad Raid is never meant for this story this at least says one thing and that at this stage the USSR does not have the Atomic Bomb as of September 1946 and that the USSR does not get an Atomic Bomb until 1950 or unless Sergi can remove one one from his ass (now that is being childish )
  #349  
Old 08 Mar 12, 23:50
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Only problem is that people would have been so sick of war that they'd all ban togather and sing Kumbaya. Then the govts and generals will be wtf and just die.
  #350  
Old 09 Mar 12, 01:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Nah, but they weren't looking for them. Got too comfortable with Ultra.



No ability for Photo Recce? Hello, I just showed you pictures of Mosquito PRXVI and Spit. PRXXI

The latest model of PR Mozzie, the 34, had the range to fly to India from the UK, just FYI



Oh, you've decided that the Allies are chauvinistic now .. right .. so that can cover all sorts of your idiot fiction. Great.



In contrast the Soviet Union did such a good job of being prepared for Hitler.



You have got that down to a tee.
Huh...nothing to reply to. Another totally useless post.
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  #351  
Old 09 Mar 12, 01:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
Ok i'll bite on this reply.

Let us assume i stuffed up big time and that the Leningrad raid that i lifted from another storyline you wrote on another forum was never intended for this particular story.

Just how does the Soviets get the Atomic Bomb off the Americans, what one of your so called superspies steals one and ships it back to the USSR as "Medical Supplies".

So if you are correct and that the Leningrad Raid is never meant for this story this at least says one thing and that at this stage the USSR does not have the Atomic Bomb as of September 1946 and that the USSR does not get an Atomic Bomb until 1950 or unless Sergi can remove one one from his ass (now that is being childish )
We could go with T.A.'s scenario of 4 unescorted bombers that get jumped by a six refurbished Me262s. The Soviets know who, what, when, where and of course why the raid is coming and ambush it with the 262s. They purposely wing the one with the bomb and it crashes near Kotlin Island. They get one damaged nuclear bomb.

Later the US tries a larger raid later made up of B29s destined for the Mideast and that raid meets up with Wasserfals.
  #352  
Old 09 Mar 12, 05:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
We could go with T.A.'s scenario of 4 unescorted bombers that get jumped by a six refurbished Me262s. The Soviets know who, what, when, where and of course why the raid is coming and ambush it with the 262s. They purposely wing the one with the bomb and it crashes near Kotlin Island. They get one damaged nuclear bomb.

Later the US tries a larger raid later made up of B29s destined for the Mideast and that raid meets up with Wasserfals.

Huh, nothing to reply, another totally idiotic fantasy.
  #353  
Old 09 Mar 12, 05:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
Ok i'll bite on this reply.

Let us assume i stuffed up big time and that the Leningrad raid that i lifted from another storyline you wrote on another forum was never intended for this particular story.
Yeah, the Leningrad bomb storyline was never a convincing one. If and when the Allies elected to use the bomb, and assuming they wouldn't use it in a tactical role, they would much more likely go for a critical strategic target like Baku.
Baku would be in easy escort range from Allied bases in the Mid-East and Carriers in the Gulf, bombing it would not kill too many Russians and the Red Army is dependent on its oil.

The British already did some studies of bombing Baku in 39-40.
  #354  
Old 09 Mar 12, 19:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairog View Post
We could go with T.A.'s scenario of 4 unescorted bombers that get jumped by a six refurbished Me262s. The Soviets know who, what, when, where and of course why the raid is coming and ambush it with the 262s. They purposely wing the one with the bomb and it crashes near Kotlin Island. They get one damaged nuclear bomb.

Later the US tries a larger raid later made up of B29s destined for the Mideast and that raid meets up with Wasserfals.
No that can't happen, this means a Leningrad raid, this has been absolutely ruled out by you, so your point of the Soviets having the Atomic bomb has absolutely no merit, you have just contradicted yourself.
  #355  
Old 09 Mar 12, 19:35
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Huh, nothing to reply, another totally idiotic fantasy.
His fantasy was to deny my addition of the Leningrad Raid, the reason he denied my addition of the Leningrad Rais was because i got in first and pre-empted him and that rattled him.
  #356  
Old 09 Mar 12, 19:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Yeah, the Leningrad bomb storyline was never a convincing one. If and when the Allies elected to use the bomb, and assuming they wouldn't use it in a tactical role, they would much more likely go for a critical strategic target like Baku.
Baku would be in easy escort range from Allied bases in the Mid-East and Carriers in the Gulf, bombing it would not kill too many Russians and the Red Army is dependent on its oil.

The British already did some studies of bombing Baku in 39-40.
Absolutely agree.

But they would'nt need to use the atomic bomb as there were enough RAF heavy bomber units in that area and well within reach of Baku/Maykop with plenty of escorts
  #357  
Old 10 Mar 12, 04:17
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Who died and made you king? I'll damn well do with my storyline what I please with or without your approval. If you can hijack it I can hijack it back. I'm using T.A.s raid that is intercepted by some refurbished Me 262s. You can do what you want.

You seemed to like T.A.s version at one point. I guess that green eyed monster is blinding your thinking.

In my version the Soviets have one damaged nuke. Continue on with your own if you wish.

Why don't you two try and write up a convincing raid on Baku. Where are these bases? How long before they could be ready for the B29?. How long before they could gather enough escorts and bombers? How many would they need? What date would be the earliest such a raid could be mounted. How would the fighters get to their bases? Where would they be?

Try creating something of your own for a change. I guarantee you it is much more rewarding to do something positive instead of just being contrary. Contrary is lazy and anyone can do it. Maybe you're not capable of creative input. I suspect you have the imagination. Prove me right and work up a Baku raid.
  #358  
Old 10 Mar 12, 05:59
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Just been reading through to catch up. It might be an idea to do a bit of research into counter espionage and spying. If you are going to rely on human intelligence to give you the target of every raid then you are running the risk of compromising all your agents through overwork. See penkovsky and the Cuban missile crisis. The more information they pass the greater the risk that they are detected.

If you need indication of a raid then use signal intelligence if you suddenly get four hundred planes testing their radios then something is going on. What you won't have is definite targets.

It might be possible to pass a target list telling the soviets what the allies plan on hitting but day by day delivering of targets will get your network rolled up in a fortnight.
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  #359  
Old 10 Mar 12, 12:49
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Just been reading through to catch up. It might be an idea to do a bit of research ....
  #360  
Old 10 Mar 12, 21:47
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Originally Posted by hairog View Post
The problem was the guidance system and not the missile. The Wasserfal could reach the altitude needed and was able to be steered. That is a fact. What it lacked was a reliable guidance system. In our TL we have one. One that did exist but was not mated with the Wasserfal in OTL. In this TL it is.
As I previously pointed out, repeatedly the Wasserfall has serious issues with guidance and the airframe. The Soviets post war did try to produce a working version of it only to find the control surfaces weren't effective in the trans-sonic and supersonic range so maneuvering the missile was a major problem. They tried a number of fixes but in the end decided it was unsalvagable and went to the S 25 (SA 1 guild) design instead.

As for guidance, the German system was a pathetic joke (also pointed out). Designing and building one that would work requires things the Soviets don't have and German war booty won't provide. These include a electro-mechanical computer that can be slaved to the various radar systems necessary to make the system work.

The US Nike system, as I pointed out, used three radars. A suveillance radar to find the target, a target tracking radar, and a missile tracking radar. There was an additional data link to the missile steering it to the target. The radars were on widely different wavelengths to avoid jamming by diversity. The computer was workable but slow. It was subject to gliches like if the tracking was blocked for more than a couple of seconds the computer took as much as 10 more seconds to recover and restore tracking and guidance. Therefore, even intermittent jamming at the right frequency(s) would render the system useless.
I might note, it was light years ahead of the German command guidance system. I also noted that a command guidance system on the SA 2 in Vietnam used due to jamming, that had television optics included so the operator could see the target at 35,000+ feet, got about 1% hit rates using it. Essentially, the system was rendered ineffective by jamming.
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