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  #91  
Old 21 Feb 12, 18:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
It would be impossible. A premptive attack was war gamed out by the STAVKA and the attack was quickly defeated with crippling losses to the Red Army.
Well, that's disconcerting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
The Germans already outnumbered the Red Army frontier defences. In May 1941 the fields in Poland were fields of mud and the rivers were in flood. Not only that the Germans were already well advanced in their deployment east and were deployed in depth to prevent discovery and conserve supplies. All eyes were facing east. There could have been no surprise and because the Red Army was still mobilising the Germans and Romanians already outnumbered the Red Army frontier forces. Add in the fact all four German panzer groups were deployed in Poland and East Prussia and the did have gas, spares and ammunition and were prepared for the fight.
See below.
Loving the idea of taking those supply dumps... but anyway, look down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
The forces of the Western Military District (northern Poland) were amongst the worst organised and prepared to meet the coming invasion.
Yes, they were the cannon-fodder forward, standard practice. They were the speed-bump historically, or the 1st wave looking for a weak spot in my scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
Further, because the USSR was expecting any attack to be aimed at the resource and agricultural rich zones in the Ulraine and Don-Bas that is where the bulk of their strength was concentrated. This also explains why AG South did not perform as well as its neighbours to the north (there also more 'depth' in the south). Five of the best MC in 1941 were deployed as reserves, were not caught by surprise and while they managed to execute a fighting withdrawl ,they were incapable of stopping a single panzer group despite having some 3500 tanks on June 22nd (but they managed to shed hundreds of tanks a day for want of gasoline, spare parts and trained mechanics).

And you want to attack the Germans??

You a crazy dude, Exo.

.
AG South was hobbled by the Romanian front starting out a week late. The Russians on that front dug-in, instead of rushing north like the Germans thought they would.

If you say the Red Army can't achieve surprise, then fine, its all moot.
The whole thing is predicated on the idea that if the Communists had been able to do so, then they would have had great success.
And why not?
Pre-dawn waves of aircraft sweep in and smother the forward-deployed Luftwaffe with raids, the inevitable break-thoughs can't be maintained by the Divisions that made them... but who cares? Load another Corps and fire it at the enemy, we have plenty!

And, since we are not going to game it out, my little twist; an attack aimed at Ploesti, timed to strike while the Germans are trying to re-deploy from Greece to Poland.
That ought to make somebody tear his hair out.
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Last edited by The Exorcist; 21 Feb 12 at 18:05..
  #92  
Old 21 Feb 12, 18:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
...And, since we are not going to game it out, my little twist; an attack aimed at Ploesti, timed to strike while the Germans are trying to re-deploy from Greece to Poland....
What redeployment to Poland??

The forces used for the Balkans came from forces that were assigned to the OKW reserve or otherwise unassigned. Very few came from Barbarossa. After the campaign the forces earmarked for Barbarossa generally replaced the reserves (they traded places). In the cases where the units did need to move east they were sent to Romania and all were in place long before Barbarossa. The examples of 2nd and 5th pz divisions are instructive. They were stripped of much their armour (to build up units already in place) and placed in OKW reserve after the Balkans. They were later committed after receiving new kit (thus denying the new kit to units already at the front, who now went without).

The Balkans did not delay Barbarossa by even a day. Halder's war diary is quite informative. The delays imposed on Barbarossa mainly came from structural weaknesses/failures in the German military and their logistics services (stockpiling fuel, ammunition, spares, food, etc., getting the troops into position for the attack, late arriving bridging equipment,... the list is very long). In the end the Germans under estimated their needs in any case and they ran low of every commodity within four weeks of the campign being launched (stockpiles could not be moved forward fast enough or in quantities required,... ie clothing, summer and winter, was left behind in favour of ammunition and fuel ).
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  #93  
Old 21 Feb 12, 18:23
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Ah, okay then, but the value of a 2nd attack aimed at the oil still holds. The Germans would have to stop the Reds at 2 very distant fronts or be knocked out of the war.

And yes, I know that it was a wet spring, that was the real delay, for the Germans. I think the Russians could have dealt with adverse weather better ... as they so often did in practice.
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  #94  
Old 21 Feb 12, 19:47
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Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
...And yes, I know that it was a wet spring, that was the real delay, for the Germans. I think the Russians could have dealt with adverse weather better ... as they so often did in practice.
Did they? I don't mean to harp on you but the Red Army was no better at operating in mud than anyone else. Their trucks still sank, along with guns and tanks. A lot of people point to the T-34 as some sort of hovercraft but it wasn't. It did better than many but mud brought it and the Red Army to halt just like everyone else. In the spring of 1941 the Red Army in the west was paper tiger. If it could not defend a position, it certainly wasn't prepared to launch a grand strategic offensive.
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  #95  
Old 21 Feb 12, 20:03
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I just got in my new issue of World at War (#23). It covers the subject of fortifications on the Western Borders of the USSR. There were 13 such regions going into 1938. They added a further 8 by the end of 1939. Withe the move of the border to the west a lot more were constructed, 21! These were no Maginot lines or even Westwall! Many were poorly done as the labor used was not always up to task. The various regions had mostly Machinegun Bunkers.

The hard part was they were designed to defeat the Polish Army, not the German Army!

I is a good article and if you have a few bucks, get the magazine. If nothing else you can use the map of the Western USSR provided and see all the Fortified Regions and the rivers the Germans had to cross!

Pruitt
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  #96  
Old 22 Feb 12, 01:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
Ah, okay then, but the value of a 2nd attack aimed at the oil still holds. The Germans would have to stop the Reds at 2 very distant fronts or be knocked out of the war.

And yes, I know that it was a wet spring, that was the real delay, for the Germans. I think the Russians could have dealt with adverse weather better ... as they so often did in practice.
I think you're both right. The Russians would make ZERO headway in Poland, but the Hungarian and Romanian fronts would probably offer a good opportunity for Stalin. With a quick drive through Hungary, the RA could link up with Yugoslavian partisans and hopefully attack and take Trieste from the Italians thus cutting the Balkans off from the Axis. They would have to work quickly, and manage supply somehow, but even if they didn't make it all the way to the Adriatic, Ploesti would be theirs, leaving the Axis in quite a predicament.
Obviously the only logical time to strike would have been may '40, but in the May '41 scenario, this looks like the best possible chance.
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  #97  
Old 22 Feb 12, 02:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smallvillekalel View Post
I think you're both right. The Russians would make ZERO headway in Poland, but the Hungarian and Romanian fronts would probably offer a good opportunity for Stalin. With a quick drive through Hungary, the RA could link up with Yugoslavian partisans and hopefully attack and take Trieste from the Italians thus cutting the Balkans off from the Axis. They would have to work quickly, and manage supply somehow, but even if they didn't make it all the way to the Adriatic, Ploesti would be theirs, leaving the Axis in quite a predicament.
Obviously the only logical time to strike would have been may '40, but in the May '41 scenario, this looks like the best possible chance.
The hard part about Hungary is getting onto the plain. The Carpathian Mts are difficult to get through. At the top there's only one decent pass (the Dukla) while most of the okay ones are in Romania and go north-south. Even in 1944-45, the Red Army had to either go through th eDukla Pass or round through Romania - not easy.
  #98  
Old 22 Feb 12, 04:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mil_dude View Post
Some of my earliest memories were of adults discussing the Russian Revolution and Communism, it's always fascinated me.


Quote:
There were also a number of T-28s with up to 80mm of frontal armor and higher velocity 76mm guns than any German tank, T-34s were beginning to show up in large numbers, I think close to 3,000 had been in combat by December 1941, KV-1s which were available in small numbers which were able to stall entire German corps at choke points like roads through marshlands, and the KV-2 which could smash the much lighter German tanks with it's 152mm main gun. Between the two models more than 1,500 of these heavyweights were in action in 1941.

And from my understanding of the BT series, they were well suited for the kind of breakthrough role they would have played on the much better developed road network of western Europe. With their tracks removed they could outpace almost any tank in the world and the Soviets built over 8,000 of them.

The Soviets pioneered airborne warfare and were quite able to use obsolete bombers which they had in abundance in the transport role, much as the British did with the Whitley. The Soviets had been carrying out large scale training drops during peacetime up to and beyond the Brigade scale.
I've been a bit of a tank nut for several years, so please bear with me. The early versions of the T-28 (models 1932,1933 & 1935) had max 30mm armour. The KT-28 76.2mm gun was 16.5 calibres and the L-10 76.2mm was 26. Apart from the applique armour added to some of them, they were comparable to early Pz-IV. However, it was a bit of a dog. The KV-1 was available in reasonable numbers at the start of Barbarossa, as was the T-34 (combined, 900?). After the Axis invasion, production was ramped up, but it was like swimming in a riptide, hence the request/demand/plea for aid from the West. The Panzer divisions just had too much experience. The KV-2 was a serious bunker-buster but was just too heavy (the Reds recognised this and stopped production when the plant was moved to Siberia), couldn't fire on the move and suffered even more strain on the transmission than the KV-1. Great idea, rubbish delivery.

The early BTs could run on their wheels, but the ground had to be good, or tarmac, otherwise things broke. I'll admit they fitted with Tukhachevsky's Deep Battle doctrine, but somebody had to have the lead in tank design in the 1930s. By chance it was the Red Army. As for obsolete bombers, the Red Air Force never had enough. And again - someone had to lead. Is being first with the technology or capability inherently aggressive?

Quote:
Few people wanted more bloodshed in France and Britain, and the public still had an important role to play politically in the west unlike in Germany and the USSR.
While I understand and accept this, I am not the only commentator to lament the lost opportunities of the Phoney War, especially considering the numbers facing the French army and the aforementioned British bombing policy. Once more, with feeling

Quote:
The Bolsheviks had the blood of millions on their hands, please don't try and justify what they did. Molotov calculated that with the deportation of Kulaks to Siberia more than 20,000,000 were sent and up to 40% were dead within a year after they were left to basically fend for themselves in the harsh environment there. Stalin let Siberia do most of his killing for him.
I would never justify it. Explain it, place it within Stalinist-Marxist-Leninist political doctrine, point out the internal logic based on that doctrine, but never justify. Personally, I think Molotov's figures may be a little on the high side - the demographic data doesn't indicate a loss of 8,000,000 within a year. But given the state of Soviet statistics, all they had were estimates for several years.

Quote:
With Ivan it could reach extremes as with the Massacre of Novgorod.
Ivan would have approved of Oliver Cromwell's behaviour in Ireland. The Catholic Irish still hate Cromwell.

Quote:
Communism at it's heart is more democratic than capitalism, what the Bolsheviks did was hijack a genuine communist movement and turn it into a violent coup. Through deception, violence and intimidation the Bolsheviks first took control of the majority Mensheviks of the SD party and then after the genuine revolution in February, with the aid of massive amounts of funds from Germany used propaganda and covert operations to eventually take over most of the Soviets and by October the revolution itself. In November the Russian general election saw the Socialist Revolutionaries win a greater amount of support from the Russian people but the Bolsheviks prevented the Constituent Assembly which would have decided on the form of the new Russian government from sitting. They also created the dreaded Cheka and began a program of state terror that never really ended.

The Bolsheviks might have called themselves communists, but they were much closer to anarchists or an organized crime syndicate. The true communist revolutionaries were mostly dead by the end of the 1930s as Stalin eliminated most of his rivals. Even within the party Stalin was ruthless, just what look at what happened to Kirov and most of the members of the 1934 Party Congress who voted against Stalin, few to none survived the coming purges...Stalin was a truly brutal man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Kirov
Communism requires perfect people.
And I'm fully aware of the nature of the Bolshevik revolution, the February revolution and the interplay of the SR, Mensheviks and Bolsheviks - part of those varsity courses. The murder of Kirov is one of those things where the balance of probability indicates Stalin organised it, but there's not enough evidence to hang the man. He certainly profited from it. In fact, Stalin managed to paint himself as the great survivor.

Quote:
They were still more than capable of taking on the thinnly armored German tanks of the time. The T-37/38/40 tanks were amphibious giving the Soviets unique capabilities on the attack. You don't need amphibious tanks nearly as much on the defence when you control the bridges.
The Ma Deuce could too. The Soviet 45mm was just a Rheinmetall 37mm bored to maximum calibre. The primary advantage is the HE shell packs a punch and not a slap. In a country full of rivers and shyte roads, those amphibious tanks make great sense. The Japanese also had amphibious tanks...

Quote:
According to Suvorov all those things were going on.

Based on my viewpoint I'm likely to accept that the official Soviet information on the state of affairs is a distortion to one degree or another based on their history and agenda. while I don't believe they were genuine communists, I do think they wanted to extend Soviet control as far as they could. Stalin violated all the agreements he made at Yalta about allowing free political choice in Eastern Europe and would have extended his control as far as he could in my opinion...hence the Cold War.
Stalin took advantage of the fact that he could impose his will on the countries the Red Army liberated, just as the West was free to do as well. But then, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria and to an extent Poland had been fascist states and the first three had invaded the USSR. So imposing his will on them was to an extent payback. But he stayed true to his word in not supporting communist insurgencies in Italy, France or Greece. And the what later became the Warsaw Pact allies did form a protective glacis. And protection is something paranoids are keen on.
  #99  
Old 22 Feb 12, 04:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
Nice job on the high-speed research, its great having posters like this here.

Now, while this seems to refute what I was saying before, I just have a couple of things to add;
1- Few of the huge Moto-Mechanized Corps were completed. In fact, some existed mostly on paper. They were soon found to be so unwieldy that they were being disbanded in the 1941 re-organization.
2- Was it really megalomania, or a peace-time extension of the usual utilization of war-time manpower in the USSR?

Those Corps would have been magnificent if the expertise had been available to utilize them. To this day there has never been a single standardized formation that put so much power in the field.

And hey, you other guys; the USSR was in the process of invading Europe from 1939 until the shocking and early fall of France. Does anyone think that Stalin, regardless of the state of his army, would have turned down an opportunity to go farther?
Indeed, did he ever?

BTW- I am serious about my offer to play the Red Army against anyone in a wargame based on this premiss. Given the same advantage of surprise that the Germans had, I could put Russian troops in Berlin in 100 days or less.
The figures are available on
operation barbarossa.net/Fast-Facts/Soviet-fast-facts (by Nigel Askey),IMHO,a gold mine
About the decision to create 19MC(=38 tank and 19 mechanized divisions),it is,IMHO,
1)megalomania:there was no way the Soviet industry could create the needed motor vehicles and infrastructure for these MC
2)a wrong decision ;the result was that both categories (the MC created in 1940 and those created in 1941) only were paper tigers;if the resources waste on the 1941 MC,had been spent on the existing 1940 ones,these could have been efficient in june 1941
3)incomprehensible:
if the Soviets did not expect a German attack in 1941,there was no need to create 19 MC in march 1941
if the Soviets did expect a German attack in 1941,there also was no need to create 19 MC,because these never would be ready when the Germans attacked
4)in both cases (a German attack,or not,in 1941)the fact that in june 1941 of the 20 MC located in the Western Military Districts,13 belonged to those created in march 1941,was totally wrong and had catastrophic results .
For the Kiew MD,the situation was not much better than in the other MD:
the 4th MC(created in june 1940)had 78 % of its manpower(compared to the TOE),86 % of its tanks,80 %of its artillery,55 % of the motor vehicles,and 83 % of the tractors
for the 8th MC,the figures are :
manpower:80 %
tanks:85 %
artillery:81 %
motor vehicles:62 %
tractors:110 %
9 MC:
manpower:72 %
tanks:30 %
artillery:60 %
motor vehicles:20 %
tractors :40 %
the other MC were created in march 1941
15 MC:
manpower :90 %
tanks:70 %
artillery :50 %
motor vehicles:40 %
tractors:50 %
16 MC:
manpower :72 %
tanks:60 %
artillery:40 %
motor vehicles :33 %
tractors:60 %
19 MC:
manpower :58 %
tanks :40 %
artillery :35 %
motor vehicles:17 %
tractors:26 %
22 MC:
manpower:66 %
tanks:60 %
artillery :70 %
motor vehicles:25 %
tractors:35 %
24 MC:
manpower:58 %
tanks:20 %
artillery:NOTHING
motor vehicles:4 %
tractors :20 %
The chief operations of the 5th army said that the MC only were rifle divisions strengthened by tanks .I don't think this is wrong:the MC were sitting ducks .
I guess that after the German victory in the west,some one (Stalin/the military) was"thinking":the Germans won against the French with 10 PzD and 5 mot.divisions and 2800 tanks,thus,we will create 60 PzD and 20 mechanized divisions with 20000 tanks,forgetting/not knowing that a tank division/MC is more than X tanks,that it is something intricate:not only tanks,but also artillery,motorized infantry,motorized logistics,etc
  #100  
Old 22 Feb 12, 04:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I just got in my new issue of World at War (#23). It covers the subject of fortifications on the Western Borders of the USSR. There were 13 such regions going into 1938. They added a further 8 by the end of 1939. Withe the move of the border to the west a lot more were constructed, 21! These were no Maginot lines or even Westwall! Many were poorly done as the labor used was not always up to task. The various regions had mostly Machinegun Bunkers.

The hard part was they were designed to defeat the Polish Army, not the German Army!

I is a good article and if you have a few bucks, get the magazine. If nothing else you can use the map of the Western USSR provided and see all the Fortified Regions and the rivers the Germans had to cross!

Pruitt
I've got several maps of the Stalin Line which I still haven't scanned. I wanted to make a separate post on it, but somehow forgot about the idea. There is nothing surprising about the absence of machinegun bunkers - the Finns had only a handful of them and at the most important sectors of the Mannerheim line there were no gun turrets at all. The best equipped fortified region with all bells and whistles like electrified barbed wire fences, underground power stations in bunkers, etc. was the KaUR which shielded the northern approaches to Leningrad on the Karelian Isthmus. Although this subject is debatable, some people maintain that KaUR was the only fortified region which played its intended role 200% and stopped the Finns cold.

I mentioned the 200% number because the function of a defensive line was not to stop the enemy offensive forever but to delay his advance until the approach of the main force.
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  #101  
Old 22 Feb 12, 11:41
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ShAA,

The map shows two fortified regions in the Leningrad region. One was built prior to 1938 and is on the far side of Lake Ladoga. The second one was in the Vyborg region and was built in 1940-41. Which area are you calling KaUR? The article mentions the Karelian FR was never completely broken through.

Pruitt
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  #102  
Old 22 Feb 12, 13:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post




I've been a bit of a tank nut for several years, so please bear with me. The early versions of the T-28 (models 1932,1933 & 1935) had max 30mm armour. The KT-28 76.2mm gun was 16.5 calibres and the L-10 76.2mm was 26. Apart from the applique armour added to some of them, they were comparable to early Pz-IV. However, it was a bit of a dog. The KV-1 was available in reasonable numbers at the start of Barbarossa, as was the T-34 (combined, 900?). After the Axis invasion, production was ramped up, but it was like swimming in a riptide, hence the request/demand/plea for aid from the West. The Panzer divisions just had too much experience. The KV-2 was a serious bunker-buster but was just too heavy (the Reds recognised this and stopped production when the plant was moved to Siberia), couldn't fire on the move and suffered even more strain on the transmission than the KV-1. Great idea, rubbish delivery.

The early BTs could run on their wheels, but the ground had to be good, or tarmac, otherwise things broke. I'll admit they fitted with Tukhachevsky's Deep Battle doctrine, but somebody had to have the lead in tank design in the 1930s. By chance it was the Red Army. As for obsolete bombers, the Red Air Force never had enough. And again - someone had to lead. Is being first with the technology or capability inherently aggressive?



While I understand and accept this, I am not the only commentator to lament the lost opportunities of the Phoney War, especially considering the numbers facing the French army and the aforementioned British bombing policy. Once more, with feeling



I would never justify it. Explain it, place it within Stalinist-Marxist-Leninist political doctrine, point out the internal logic based on that doctrine, but never justify. Personally, I think Molotov's figures may be a little on the high side - the demographic data doesn't indicate a loss of 8,000,000 within a year. But given the state of Soviet statistics, all they had were estimates for several years.



Ivan would have approved of Oliver Cromwell's behaviour in Ireland. The Catholic Irish still hate Cromwell.



Communism requires perfect people.
And I'm fully aware of the nature of the Bolshevik revolution, the February revolution and the interplay of the SR, Mensheviks and Bolsheviks - part of those varsity courses. The murder of Kirov is one of those things where the balance of probability indicates Stalin organised it, but there's not enough evidence to hang the man. He certainly profited from it. In fact, Stalin managed to paint himself as the great survivor.



The Ma Deuce could too. The Soviet 45mm was just a Rheinmetall 37mm bored to maximum calibre. The primary advantage is the HE shell packs a punch and not a slap. In a country full of rivers and shyte roads, those amphibious tanks make great sense. The Japanese also had amphibious tanks...



Stalin took advantage of the fact that he could impose his will on the countries the Red Army liberated, just as the West was free to do as well. But then, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria and to an extent Poland had been fascist states and the first three had invaded the USSR. So imposing his will on them was to an extent payback. But he stayed true to his word in not supporting communist insurgencies in Italy, France or Greece. And the what later became the Warsaw Pact allies did form a protective glacis. And protection is something paranoids are keen on.
I spent about a half hour responding to your post and then when I went to post it lost it all when I found out I'd been logged off somehow.

I'm out of time for now, I'll try to get back to it later.
  #103  
Old 22 Feb 12, 15:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells
...While I understand and accept this, I am not the only commentator to lament the lost opportunities of the Phoney War, especially considering the numbers facing the French army and the aforementioned British bombing policy...
Another flogging of a very dead horse.

The Germans had mobilised more divisions in the west than did the French until Sept 18-20th and even then the French advantage in numbers was small and fleeting. It would be mid October before the first major wave of mobilisation was complete

There never was an opportunity in the west for the French to attack with "superior" numbers. Its a very well worn myth found in mass market histories or by historians who simply did not dig deep enough. They tended to count the entire order of battle and assumed it was all avaiable form day one.

Deployed in France in various departments, the Belgian border, Italian border the Maginot Line and in Africa preparing to ship to France end of August:

10,11,13,14,19,21,23,36,42,43 Infantry "Active"
1,2,3,4 NA
1,3,4 Colonial
27,29,31 Mountain, 2 Col Mtn
1,2,3 Cav
1,2,5,9,13,15,25-Motor
1,2 DLM

Total - 33 divisions

By Sep 9th the Germans had mobilised 56 divisions in the west. Of these 52 were 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th wave, plus 5 reg'ts converting to divisions. Most of these and the highest quality (1st and 2nd wave primarily) were deployed with 1st Army in the Saar.

Mobilised throughout Sep and Oct by France:

5 NA
5,6,7 Col
2,4,6,7,16,18,20,22,24,26,32,35,41,45,47 Infantry (Cat A Res)
28,30 Mtn (Cat A Res)
51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,60,61,62,63,66,67,70,71 Infantry (Cat B Res)
64,65 Mtn (Cat B Res)

Total 39 divisions

The 1st and 2nd DLC and 1st DCR were also organised at this time. The two mech cav were with the 2nd Army and what would become the 9th Army.

11 category B divisions were in NW Africa and 3 more Cat B divisions were in the Leveant.

That is a total of 75 French divisions by late October. The Germans increased their deployment to 68 divisions by the end of Sept and to nearly 80 by the end of October. By November the Germans had deployed nearly 100 divisions in the west by the May offensive they had 136 avialable for the offensive.
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  #104  
Old 22 Feb 12, 16:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
ShAA,

The map shows two fortified regions in the Leningrad region. One was built prior to 1938 and is on the far side of Lake Ladoga. The second one was in the Vyborg region and was built in 1940-41. Which area are you calling KaUR? The article mentions the Karelian FR was never completely broken through.

Pruitt
I'm surprised they mentioned the Vyborg fortified region at all - it was incomplete and heavily understaffed. The one I meant is the Karelian fortified region immediately to the northwest of Leningrad. I haven't heard of any serious fortified regions on the far side of lake Ladoga.

Here is the map showing the main "battallion areas of defense" of the fortified region:

http://www.kaur.ru/maps/kaur_map.php
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  #105  
Old 22 Feb 12, 17:32
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ShAA, call me geographically challenged if you like, is this KaUR region towards Kronstadt? I can't get your link to work! the regions mentioned in the Leningrad area are: Kingisepp, Pskov and Polotsk.

Pruitt
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