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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II > German and Axis Armor

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German and Axis Armor Discuss German and Axis armored fighting vehicles in World War II. This is also the forum for Achtung Panzer.

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  #16  
Old 17 Feb 12, 17:22
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Was not the 'Karl' used in the Battle of Warsaw in 1944?

- pretty certain there was a counter for it in the old SPI game covering the Warsaw Rising
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  #17  
Old 17 Feb 12, 19:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfe Tone View Post
Was not the 'Karl' used in the Battle of Warsaw in 1944?

- pretty certain there was a counter for it in the old SPI game covering the Warsaw Rising
It was set up and made a few shots(IIRC 9) before...yes...the barrel needed to be relined!

That photo with the troops by it...cool!...I had heard it was setup real makeshift to bombard troop positions.
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  #18  
Old 17 Feb 12, 19:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pzkpfw-e View Post
Here's a Dora & Karl Gerrat shell.

Displayed at the Polish Army Museum. The Dora round, was found on a firing range at Darłowo.
The Karl round, was found in Warsaw.
This round, is displayed at The Imperial War Museum, in London.

This is supposed to be a Dora barrel, as found by the US Army.

More here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=39433
Just a bit of additional info: The Dora was also known as Schwerer Gustav. not to be confused with the Gustav.
Three were to be build. but only two were actually completed.

Ruegenwalde-Darlowo was the site of the test firing of Schwerer Gustav nummer Eins m. Seelenrohr nummer Zwei (gun no 1 with liner no 2.)
Test firings too place between 13-17 March 1943.
Four test rounds were fired.

Some sources state that 2 of the Doras were located at Kummersdorf.
That leaves one unaccounted for.
Could the one in my previous post account for the missing one?

Ed.
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  #19  
Old 17 Feb 12, 20:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsar View Post
I read somewhere that the writer thought it probably extended the war by a whole 3 minutes. He thought the money spent on it would have been better spent on developing assault rifles for the infantry.
I would think it very unlikely (the understatement of the year), that Sevastopol could have been taken with rifles instead of Siege Guns.

Ed.
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  #20  
Old 18 Feb 12, 21:04
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Originally Posted by dutched View Post
I would think it very unlikely (the understatement of the year), that Sevastopol could have been taken with rifles instead of Siege Guns.

Ed.
They would have been able to take Sevastopol without the GIANT seige guns! There contribution was small, other than an ammo dump being hit, and some other near misses. Those guns like MIGHTY Gustav and Dora and others were a huge waste of precoius resources and could have been used for Panzer 4's or Tigers or something.

It has been stated in a few books and publications that the Gustav may have actually cost Germany the war, beacuse of the manpower and materials it took for the gun.

5,000 men needed to protect and man it.
5 Whole trainsloads of peices to put together(on a supply line that was already overstretched!!)gun tube truinions etc.
Air Cover for the gun and gun crew
its own comm. center and security net
An AA unit
Over 150 trucks for the supply lines!
Months and months of building prepared positions
The shells for it had to be specially made and the gun itself was very very costly!


IDK, I also read that for the metal and money put into the gun, you could have had 50 Tiger Tanks! That would have maybe turned the tide at Kursk or helped turn a battle from a defeat into a victory!
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Old 18 Feb 12, 21:52
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Old 18 Feb 12, 22:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutched View Post
Just a bit of additional info: The Dora was also known as Schwerer Gustav. not to be confused with the Gustav.
Three were to be build. but only two were actually completed.

Ruegenwalde-Darlowo was the site of the test firing of Schwerer Gustav nummer Eins m. Seelenrohr nummer Zwei (gun no 1 with liner no 2.)
Test firings too place between 13-17 March 1943.
Four test rounds were fired.

Some sources state that 2 of the Doras were located at Kummersdorf.
That leaves one unaccounted for.
Could the one in my previous post account for the missing one?

Ed.
The Karl was a real mortar type short barrel though and tracked, whereas Dora was I believe a train rail gun? lcm1
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  #23  
Old 18 Feb 12, 22:09
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Here they both are
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  #24  
Old 19 Feb 12, 14:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcm1 View Post
The Karl was a real mortar type short barrel though and tracked, whereas Dora was I believe a train rail gun? lcm1
Yes you are correct, Dora is a totally different beast and a beast it was.
The Karl apparatus (german: Geraet Karl) was a gi-normous tracked mortar.
more or less as per photo at the beginning of the thread with some variations,
such as a different barrel or a slightly different carriage. A couple of month ago there was a thread dealing with these Karl geraete, should be archived somewhere. Let's put it this way I could not find it.
It is only because of post no 3 that I expanded on Dora.
I attach a photo of Dora at Sevastopol just to show the size of the affair.

Ed
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sevastopoldora1942.jpg (145.8 KB, 8 views)
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  #25  
Old 19 Feb 12, 15:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hetzer 15 View Post
They would have been able to take Sevastopol without the GIANT seige guns! There contribution was small, other than an ammo dump being hit, and some other near misses. Those guns like MIGHTY Gustav and Dora and others were a huge waste of precoius resources and could have been used for Panzer 4's or Tigers or something.

It has been stated in a few books and publications that the Gustav may have actually cost Germany the war, beacuse of the manpower and materials it took for the gun.

5,000 men needed to protect and man it.
5 Whole trainsloads of peices to put together(on a supply line that was already overstretched!!)gun tube truinions etc.
Air Cover for the gun and gun crew
its own comm. center and security net
An AA unit
Over 150 trucks for the supply lines!
Months and months of building prepared positions
The shells for it had to be specially made and the gun itself was very very costly!

IDK, I also read that for the metal and money put into the gun, you could have had 50 Tiger Tanks! That would have maybe turned the tide at Kursk or helped turn a battle from a defeat into a victory!
I have taken all you have said on board.
I still think that you need something more powerful than just a large tank to do destroy the structure of fortresses Sevastopol style.
Simple question:
If ordinary guns could do the job of pulverising a fortress, why were siege guns developed.
Simple answer: Ordinary guns just cannot do the job.
Please note: I say destroy I am not talking about taking.

The Brits would eventually drop a few chests of drawers to do such a the job.
However the Germans did not have such weapons, what they thought they needed was something they knew would work from past experience and because they were not allowed to have any under the rulings of the Versailles treaty. They would just have some.
Enter the monster guns.

Ed.
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  #26  
Old 19 Feb 12, 20:10
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True, those guns do have a place and a time, but after the Seige at Sevastapol, there was no other place to go...granted a few when to Leningrad to add there weight there, but this action in the Crimea was there REAL use in there envisioned use.

Airpower had taken a HUGE leap forward, more than what anyone really thought was possible. The Luftwaffe was able to "on its own" repel attacks and beat off counterattacks without much help from the ground. At least in this stage of the war.

Most of these huge guns that were placed there in Sevastopol(by the USSR) could have been bypassed and left for teams with flamethowers or flame tanks to deal with IMHO.

Beyond there use there, there was nowhere else to really go out and have a fun day pushing shells into the lower stratusphere, and trying to hit stuff. Germany had developed most of these guns for the French belt defenses, and those were largely bypassed and taken from the rear, even though they were impreggnable from massed point blank range fire!

IDK, I guess Im not really convinced that these huge guns, did the job that was at hand. Germany devoted much to there construction and I think everyone thought this was a place to send them to justify the large sums of Reichmarks put into there construction...

When you look at the bigger picture. The Huge guns in the Atlantic Wall, did little good, the turret Maxim Gorki fired many many rounds, but did no real damage, other than burn out many many barrels! Anzio Annie, was little more than a sideshow at best. The 20-25 K5 railroad guns, were made out as a HUGE asset, but in the end were used as more of a last ditch weapon.

Once the railroad network was under constant attack from airpower or partisans, getting these huge guns from place to place was a huge undertaking and more trouble than it was probably worth!
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Old 20 Feb 12, 06:07
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That is one huge shell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pzkpfw-e View Post
Here's a Dora & Karl Gerrat shell.

Displayed at the Polish Army Museum. The Dora round, was found on a firing range at Darłowo.
The Karl round, was found in Warsaw.
This round, is displayed at The Imperial War Museum, in London.

This is supposed to be a Dora barrel, as found by the US Army.

More here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=39433
That Dora round is gigantic. Even if it did not explode it probably could have taken out a whole block of buildings. But was the bang worth the buck?
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Old 20 Feb 12, 15:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hetzer 15 View Post
True, those guns do have a place and a time, but after the Seige at Sevastapol, there was no other place to go...granted a few when to Leningrad to add there weight there, but this action in the Crimea was there REAL use in there envisioned use.

Airpower had taken a HUGE leap forward, more than what anyone really thought was possible. The Luftwaffe was able to "on its own" repel attacks and beat off counterattacks without much help from the ground. At least in this stage of the war.

Most of these huge guns that were placed there in Sevastopol(by the USSR) could have been bypassed and left for teams with flamethowers or flame tanks to deal with IMHO.

Beyond there use there, there was nowhere else to really go out and have a fun day pushing shells into the lower stratusphere, and trying to hit stuff. Germany had developed most of these guns for the French belt defenses, and those were largely bypassed and taken from the rear, even though they were impreggnable from massed point blank range fire!

IDK, I guess Im not really convinced that these huge guns, did the job that was at hand. Germany devoted much to there construction and I think everyone thought this was a place to send them to justify the large sums of Reichmarks put into there construction...

When you look at the bigger picture. The Huge guns in the Atlantic Wall, did little good, the turret Maxim Gorki fired many many rounds, but did no real damage, other than burn out many many barrels! Anzio Annie, was little more than a sideshow at best. The 20-25 K5 railroad guns, were made out as a HUGE asset, but in the end were used as more of a last ditch weapon.

Once the railroad network was under constant attack from airpower or partisans, getting these huge guns from place to place was a huge undertaking and more trouble than it was probably worth!
It would be possible that the Germans thought of these weapons as prestige objects something to show off their military might to the world.
They only place where these weapons could have been of some use, would have been as coastal artillery. For some reason or other, events overtook the use of these weapons for such a purpose. The Germans had plans to save the the situation in Normandy, by bringing in these beasties. Too late.
Had these German pieces had been installed in the Normandy landing areas prior to the invasion they would have been a great threat to the allied fleet.
The Germans did have railway artillery along the front. But these were without exception booty material. And they were all stationed outside the invasion area.
Maybe the Germans considered their own pieces too valuable, after all these are very sizeable pieces and likely prone to air attack.

Ed.
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Old 20 Feb 12, 17:01
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"Dora" was developed with a view to attacking the Maginot line - before aircraft were suitably developed to attack such targets effectively, as a follow on to the "Big Berthas" of WW1 -
,like many such ideas, it developed a life of its own, when it's original mission passed it by, firstly as a weapon to attack the fortress of Gibraltar, then when that idea fell through, its use in Russia.
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Old 20 Feb 12, 19:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutched View Post
It would be possible that the Germans thought of these weapons as prestige objects something to show off their military might to the world.
They only place where these weapons could have been of some use, would have been as coastal artillery. For some reason or other, events overtook the use of these weapons for such a purpose. The Germans had plans to save the the situation in Normandy, by bringing in these beasties. Too late.
Had these German pieces had been installed in the Normandy landing areas prior to the invasion they would have been a great threat to the allied fleet.
The Germans did have railway artillery along the front. But these were without exception booty material. And they were all stationed outside the invasion area.
Maybe the Germans considered their own pieces too valuable, after all these are very sizeable pieces and likely prone to air attack.

Ed.
Very true, on all these points.
1. Yes, the coastal idea was in place and about a dozen were scattered around and saw action on the coast but with limited success, unless you can call the destuction of an entire town a victory!
2. The french railroad guns you refer too, were real vintage stuff, some dating back into the 20's and 30's and with only limited shells and barrel life left to them. Some were used until they broke down(one was lost when its trunion broke from overfiring!)
3. Air attack was a real biggie back in the day, esp. in France where the "jabos" pounced on anything and everything that moved! I know of a few there were trashed in this way, more were lost beind destroyed so that they would not fall into allied hands(like Leopold).
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