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  #31  
Old 16 Feb 12, 07:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mil_dude View Post
I've read his follow-on book The Chief Culprit a couple of times. The first time through I found his conclusions hard to accept, that Stalin was the main architect of WW II and the Soviet armed forces were by far the most potent in the world offensively at the time(summer 1941).

The second times around what Suvorov is saying makes a lot more sense to me anyway than conventional history on the origins of WW II.

From the looks of it The Chief Culprit is a lot less expensive than Icebreaker.
You may try Isaev's Antisuvorov as well. Unfortunately I couldn't find English language version of his book, may be, you'd be more lucky.
But my advise is - don't hurry to believe both of them. The more you read different sources the more complete picture you can obtain.
  #32  
Old 16 Feb 12, 07:30
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Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
100? 200? What a rip off!!!
I think my russian copy was, what, 1-2 bucks... The whole Icebracker series is on-line anyways... in Russian though...
Original Icebreaker is downloadable also in english...
  #33  
Old 16 Feb 12, 12:29
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Originally Posted by dmf01 View Post
You may try Isaev's Antisuvorov as well. Unfortunately I couldn't find English language version of his book, may be, you'd be more lucky.
But my advise is - don't hurry to believe both of them. The more you read different sources the more complete picture you can obtain.
Thanks, I'd like to check out some resources challenging Suvorov's conclusions.

The thing I like about Suvorov is the detail he goes into and he gives a perspective on the Soviet military that clears up some of the confusion I've had for years...namely how could a national military that performed so poorly in the opening phases of its part in the war evenutally go on to perform so well.

Suvorov's conclusion that the Soviet military got caught in the most vulnerable position in late June of 1941(massing on the border in preparation for attack) makes more sense to me than that it was incompetently led and poorly equipped.

As Suvorov explains, it had weapons and capabilities no other nation had militarily at the time.

- About 4,000 amphibious tanks
- Medium and heavy tanks that significantly outclassed German AFVs.
- Ample artillery from excellent light field guns in 76mm and heavier weapons like the 122mm.
- The worlds largest Airborne forces with about 1,000,000 trained parachutists and 150,000 paratroopers in 5 Corps at the front in the summer of 1941.

The details just go on...

Last edited by Mil_dude; 16 Feb 12 at 13:04..
  #34  
Old 16 Feb 12, 14:55
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If you would read books based on Soviet archives instead of Suvorov's fairy tales the reasons for the Red Army's forward defence and poor showing are not at all hard to understand. The answer is in doctrine.

Red Army doctrine, or rather Stalin's version of it, called for any invasion to be met by immediate local counterattacks by the frontier forces to check the advance while reserves massed. Once the initial assault had been stopped the Red Army would then go over to the general offensive and drive the enemy back into their own territory. The "First Strategic Echelon" was deployed within 40 km of the frontier and was tasked with stopping the initial attack. The "Second Strategic Echelon" was deployed up to about 70 kms of the frontier and were to be used to begin the counteroffensive. The Stavka belated got permission in March 1941 to begin mobilising the army to wartime strength but this was not complete by the time the Germans attacked.

Many of the guns and tanks attributed to the Red Army were in parks, often without spares, fuel or ammunition. many frontier formations and even more of the Second Echelon were still drawing kit when the Germans struck. The air force were jammed into field and over crowded because the new air sptrips were not ready for proper dispersal. They were sitting ducks.

As a back up, the STAVKA also gained permission in April 41 to begin mobilising the "Third Strategic Echelon back along the upper Dvina and Dnepr Rivers. These forces were the main reserves, noticably deployed in depth, that brought Barbarossa to a halt in July and Aug 1941.

Suvorov does not discuss these aspects of the opening weeks of the war because he is fiction writer, or worse, a conspiracy theorist. There is no mystery to what happened in Jun 1941, nearly 4.5 million Axis troops attacked the 3 million unprepared troops of the first two echelons of the Red Army.

My suggestion is to stop reading 'general' histories of the war and to move into more scholarly, technical investigations of events. There are plenty of authors in English to cjose from. Simply 'counting rifles' will inevitably lead to the wrong conclusions,... as your post above so clearly demonstrates.
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Last edited by The Purist; 16 Feb 12 at 16:15..
  #35  
Old 16 Feb 12, 15:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmf01 View Post
You may try Isaev's Antisuvorov as well. Unfortunately I couldn't find English language version of his book, may be, you'd be more lucky.
But my advise is - don't hurry to believe both of them. The more you read different sources the more complete picture you can obtain.
An excerpt is available on the web:
Excerpts from A.Isaev's rebuttals to the "Suvurov thesis".
Whatever,there was no possibility for the Soviets to attack Germany,the reason being :the Red Army was no good in june 1941,the responsability for this was a co-one of Stalin and the generals.Of course,after the death of Stalin,the generals were casting the responsability on him,and concealing their responsability .
  #36  
Old 17 Feb 12, 02:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mil_dude View Post
Thanks, I'd like to check out some resources challenging Suvorov's conclusions.
Start with Tooze's economic analysis of Nazi Germany. Hitler's plan to obtain Lebensraum for a Greater German Reich by conquering and depopulating Russia was outlines in Mein Kampf. As an example, from the beginning Hitler's economic and domestic policies were directed to that end. In 1933, he announced a two-phase, eight year rearmament program designed to have Germany ready by 1941.

Quote:
[The Red Army] had weapons and capabilities no other nation had militarily at the time.

- About 4,000 amphibious tanks
- Medium and heavy tanks that significantly outclassed German AFVs.
- Ample artillery from excellent light field guns in 76mm and heavier weapons like the 122mm.
- The worlds largest Airborne forces with about 1,000,000 trained parachutists and 150,000 paratroopers in 5 Corps at the front in the summer of 1941.
The numbers are just numbers, and tell only part of the story. The Red Army had the largest air force and army in the world, by a considerable margin, but then they were charged with defending what was the largest country in the world, again by a considerable margin. On paper it was a formidable force but the reality is quite different.

The tank arsenal was mainly T-26 and BT tanks, capable designs in 1936 but rapidly approaching obsolescence in 1939. The air force was likewise afflicted with obsolescent equipment, while the navy was never a priority. The progressive army leaders who had begun experimenting with mechanized and airborne warfare had been purged and the remainder cowed. Training was limited and rote, such that by 1939 the Red Army was barely able to conduct set-piece actions, as shown by the dismal performance of the Winter War.

The Winter War resulted in a frantic program to develop new weaponry. There is an undercurrent of urgency and vulnerability evident in correspondence between the Red Army, State Ministries and Soviet war industry during the period that belies any readiness to contemplate an aggressive war. Whether or not Stalin expected war with Germany is debatable, but certainly members of his cabinet were expecting the worst, and well aware of the army's poor state of preparedness. In the context of 1939 or even 1941, any suggestion that the USSR declare war against Germany would have been taken seriously and anyone advocating it would have quickly found themselves on the outside looking in.

Regards
Scott Fraser

Last edited by Scott Fraser; 17 Feb 12 at 13:05..
  #37  
Old 17 Feb 12, 12:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
If you would read books based on Soviet archives instead of Suvorov's fairy tales the reasons for the Red Army's forward defence and poor showing are not at all hard to understand. The answer is in doctrine.

Red Army doctrine, or rather Stalin's version of it, called for any invasion to be met by immediate local counterattacks by the frontier forces to check the advance while reserves massed. Once the initial assault had been stopped the Red Army would then go over to the general offensive and drive the enemy back into their own territory. The "First Strategic Echelon" was deployed within 40 km of the frontier and was tasked with stopping the initial attack. The "Second Strategic Echelon" was deployed up to about 70 kms of the frontier and were to be used to begin the counteroffensive. The Stavka belated got permission in March 1941 to begin mobilising the army to wartime strength but this was not complete by the time the Germans attacked.

Many of the guns and tanks attributed to the Red Army were in parks, often without spares, fuel or ammunition. many frontier formations and even more of the Second Echelon were still drawing kit when the Germans struck. The air force were jammed into field and over crowded because the new air sptrips were not ready for proper dispersal. They were sitting ducks.

As a back up, the STAVKA also gained permission in April 41 to begin mobilising the "Third Strategic Echelon back along the upper Dvina and Dnepr Rivers. These forces were the main reserves, noticably deployed in depth, that brought Barbarossa to a halt in July and Aug 1941.

Suvorov does not discuss these aspects of the opening weeks of the war because he is fiction writer, or worse, a conspiracy theorist. There is no mystery to what happened in Jun 1941, nearly 4.5 million Axis troops attacked the 3 million unprepared troops of the first two echelons of the Red Army.

My suggestion is to stop reading 'general' histories of the war and to move into more scholarly, technical investigations of events. There are plenty of authors in English to cjose from. Simply 'counting rifles' will inevitably lead to the wrong conclusions,... as your post above so clearly demonstrates.
I know the conventional story, but how close is it to reality.

Stalin was one of the most devious and ruthless leaders in history, accepting the official accounts of the events of June 1941 will lead to inevitable misunderstandings.

From what I understand Suvorov bases his conclusion from the extensive archives he had access to while training to be GRU analyst, how is this fictional?

-Stalin did invade and divide Poland with the Nazis in 1939.
-Stalin did attack and eventually overwhelm the Mannerheim Line in Finland leaving the rest of the nation exposed to invasion at a later time, and while the Soviets took heavy casualties as Suvorov points out what other nation could have performed in those conditions and prevailed, Finland wasn't a defeat for the Soviets, far from it.
-Stalin did invade and annex the Baltic nations and in conjunction with the seizing of the Karelian Peninsula left Germany's transport lines to essential resources in Finland and Sweden like iron, nickle and timber vulnerable.
-Stalin did invade and seize Moldavia putting his armored forces in a position to rapidly advance and seize the crucial Romanian oil fields Germany was largely dependent on for much of it's petroleum.

By the summer of 1941 the Soviet Union was in a position to cut off Germany from much of its necessary resources including the massive amounts of oil, food and other materials arriving from the Soviet union.

On the western border of the Soviet Union, there were approximately 170 divisions some armed with the best tanks in the world. Most of the armament factories were located in west the near the frontier, there were massive amounts of munitions in boxcars and even stacked on the ground near artillery emplacments. Much of the Red air force was located close to the border.

The 9th Army which had played a crucial role in the invasion of Poland and Finland was also present in the key area opposite the Romanian oil fields.

There were the "Black" divisions of troops recruited from the Siberian Gulags who were still in their prison uniforms in transit to the front when the Germans invaded.

The list goes on and on.

You don't mass your forces in vulnerable salients if you're preparing for an effective defence, you deploy them in depth behind well prepared fortification like the Soviets had with the Stalin line which Stalin abandoned and largely dismantled in 1940.

The Red Army was prepared for attack...it was designed for attack in 1941.

Stalin's intentions aren't a mystery as we saw after the war and the Cold War began. He also wasn't a fool, he just misjudged Hitlers intentions. He looked for signs he thought would indicate a coming invasion that he felt any sane leader would make, like preparing to fight during the brutal winter months in the depths of Russia. Hitler didn't make those preparations and Stalin got caught with his pants down.

It makes much more sense than claiming that one of the most clever and ruthless leaders of all time just somehow managed to concentrate most of his forces in very vulnerable salients where coincidentaly they would have been in the best position for a massive offensive. The most likely explaination is Stalin was preparing to do to Hitler what Hitler did to him first.

You don't place much of your aircraft, tanks and artillery up near your frontier with a potential enemy if you're preparing for defence, you do it in preparation for attack.

The same goes for the river flotillas(I think it was the Volga Flotilla), half of which was sent to the Danube where it would be a potent weapons if the Soviets advanced into Romania and further west. It was lost when the German advance cut off it's retreat.

The Soviets didn't begin mobilization in 1941 btw, they began industrial mobilization in the spring of 1939 and military mobilization in August of that year...and began military operations in September when the Nazis invaded Poland. These operations didn't stop, so how can people claim the Soviets were just sitting passively by waiting for the Nazis to attack. Stalin understood there would and could be no peace with the fascists or with the western free market nations, it was the whole point behind the communist revolution in Russia and the reason so much resources were put into building the largest offensive force in the world.

Conventional history is largely the cover story created by Stalin to mask his real intentions, it's not a conspiracy theory to believe he was interested in much more than Soviet security given his actions after the war...or the who point of Soviet style communism.

Also the Red Army units that did open their sealed orders at the commencement of Barbarossa attacked towards the West, they didn't have plans for a coordinated defence.

Last edited by Mil_dude; 17 Feb 12 at 12:57..
  #38  
Old 17 Feb 12, 13:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Fraser View Post
Start with Tooze's economic analysis of Nazi Germany. Hitler's plan to obtain Lebensraum for a Greater German Reich by conquering and depopulating Russia was outlines in [/i]Mein Kampf[/i]. As an example, from the beginning Hitler's economic and domestic policies were directed to that end. In 1933, he announced a two-phase, eight year rearmament program designed to have Germany ready by 1941.
Yes and Mein Kampf also details Hitlers plans to rectify the injustice he felt had been suffered at the end of WW I, which meant that Poland and France were his first targets. Stalin read the book and understood Hitlers intentions well which is why he aided Germany until the attack. Germany wouldn't have been able to sucessfully take on the western Allies in 1940 without a secure border in the East and the massvie amounts of supplies being sent by The Soviet Union. Stalin gamble misfired though, the stalemate he thought would repeat in the west like in 1914 didn't occure and he had just a short time to prepare for an invasion of Poland and eventually Germany.

Quote:
The numbers are just numbers, and tell only part of the story. The Red Army had the largest air force and army in the world, by a considerable margin, but then they were charged with defending what was the largest country in the world, again by a considerable margin. On paper it was a formidable force but the reality is quite different.

The tank arsenal was mainly T-26 and BT tanks, capable designs in 1936 but rapidly approaching obsolescence in 1939. The air force was likewise afflicted with obsolescent equipment, while the navy was never a priority. The progressive army leaders who had begun experimenting with mechanized and airborne warfare had been purged and the remainder cowed. Training was limited and rote, such that by 1939 the Red Army was barely able to conduct set-piece actions, as shown by the dismal performance of the Winter War.

The Winter War resulted in a frantic program to develop new weaponry. There is an undercurrent of urgency and vulnerability evident in correspondence between the Red Army, State Ministries and Soviet war industry during the period that belies any readiness to contemplate an aggressive war. Whether or not Stalin expected war with Germany is debatable, but certainly members of his cabinet were expecting the worst, and well aware of the army's poor state of preparedness. In the context of 1939 or even 1941, any suggestion that the USSR declare war against Germany would have been taken seriously and anyone advocating it would have quickly found themselves on the outside looking in.

Regards
Scott Fraser
They are more than just numbers, the Red Army had been in fairly constant action since the outbreak of war and had seized some crucial territory. It had capabilities that no other nation had at the time, I find it hard to believe it was this toothless relic that Stalin tried to paint it out to be after his plans for invasion were destroyed in June 1941.

We're dealing with one of histories greatest liars in Stalin.

Last edited by Mil_dude; 17 Feb 12 at 15:48..
  #39  
Old 17 Feb 12, 14:14
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When in doubt, search:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=100042
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=77860

If you read Russian, this essay by Valera Potapov discusses Suvorov: http://www.battlefield.ru/frustrated-historian-3.html
  #40  
Old 17 Feb 12, 14:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mil_dude View Post
Yes and Mein Kampf also details Hitlers plans to rectify the injustice he felt had been suffered at the end of WW I, which meant that Poland and France were his first targets. Stalin read the book and understood Hitlers intentions well which is why he added Germany until the attack. Germany wouldn't have been able to sucessfully take on the western Allies in 1940 without a secure border in the East and the massvie amounts of supplies being sent by The Soviet Union. Stalin gamble misfired though, the stalemate he thought would repeat in the west like in 1914 didn't occure and he had just a short time to prepare for an invasion of Poland and eventually Germany.



They are more than just numbers, the Red Army had been in fairly constant action since the outbreak of war and had seized some crucial territory. It had capabilities that no other nation had at the time, I find it hard to believe it was this toothless relic that Stalin tried to paint it out to be after his plans for invasion were destroyed in June 1941.

We're dealing with one of histories greatest liars in Stalin.
The fact is that the red army was no good in june :an attack on Germany was depending on the Mechanized Corps,and,these were worthless.
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  #41  
Old 17 Feb 12, 16:02
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Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
The fact is that the red army was no good in june :an attack on Germany was depending on the Mechanized Corps,and,these were worthless.
Based on what, the fact it was defeated on the field of battle in the summer of 1941?

It wasn't deployed for defence, if the Soviets had attacked first the same or worse would have happened to the Germans. The Red Army was simply hit in it's most vulnerable position and had no time to recover before most of it was destroyed or captured.

It had already carried out successful operation in Poland, Finland, the Baltic States and Moldavia. In the East it had decisively defeated the Japanese at Khalkhin Gol to the degree the Japanese never again wanted to face it.

As for the Winter War in Finland, few armies in the world would have even been able to operate in such a hostile environment, both in terms of the local climate, topography and fierce defence by the Finns.
  #42  
Old 17 Feb 12, 16:27
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Just do a littel study on the nature of Soviet Communism and the Bolshevik party to understand what it really stood for. It was much closer to a criminal organization than a traditional government and had a long history of violence and the use of deception to advance its interests. Stalin himself used a sucession of alliances with powerful party members like Zinoviev and Kamenev to remove rivals like Trotsky. He was doing the same thing in playing the Germans off against the western powers.

Why would a country like the Soviet Union even support fascist Germany which should have been its clearest enemy if not to take advantage of the results. Without the aid of the Soviet Union the German armed forces wouldn't have even been in a position to rearm to the degree they did in the 1930s. Much of the baseline research and personnel training had been done in places like Kazan from the mid 1920s to the early 1930s. After the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the soviets and Germans became defacto allies and massive amounts of oil, foodstuffs, rubber from the far east, strategic metals and more began flowing into Germany. It's in part what allowed the Germans to sucessfully invade to the west.

Stalin wasn't doing this because he had a kind heart, the guy idolized Ivan The Terrible and Ghengis Khan for instance, he was doing it to weaken or destroy nations he wanted to eventually take over. This isn't conspiracy theory, it was a basic precept of international communism at the time.

We saw how thouroughly western governments and intelligence agencies had been penetrated by the Soviets long before the Cold War started and how determined Stalin was to expand communism in supporting war in China, Korea and later leaders in SE Asia, Central America, Africa and the Middle East.

All indications are the Soviets were coming at some point, and the massive build up of the Red Army on the frontier with Germany indicate it was most likely in 1941. It doesn't make what Hitler did right, it's just means both leaders were cut from the same kind of cloth.

Last edited by Mil_dude; 17 Feb 12 at 16:41..
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Old 17 Feb 12, 18:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mil_dude View Post
I know the conventional story, but how close is it to reality.

Stalin was one of the most devious and ruthless leaders in history, accepting the official accounts of the events of June 1941 will lead to inevitable misunderstandings.

From what I understand Suvorov bases his conclusion from the extensive archives he had access to while training to be GRU analyst, how is this fictional?

-Stalin did invade and divide Poland with the Nazis in 1939.
-Stalin did attack and eventually overwhelm the Mannerheim Line in Finland leaving the rest of the nation exposed to invasion at a later time, and while the Soviets took heavy casualties as Suvorov points out what other nation could have performed in those conditions and prevailed, Finland wasn't a defeat for the Soviets, far from it.
-Stalin did invade and annex the Baltic nations and in conjunction with the seizing of the Karelian Peninsula left Germany's transport lines to essential resources in Finland and Sweden like iron, nickle and timber vulnerable.
-Stalin did invade and seize Moldavia putting his armored forces in a position to rapidly advance and seize the crucial Romanian oil fields Germany was largely dependent on for much of it's petroleum.

By the summer of 1941 the Soviet Union was in a position to cut off Germany from much of its necessary resources including the massive amounts of oil, food and other materials arriving from the Soviet union.

On the western border of the Soviet Union, there were approximately 170 divisions some armed with the best tanks in the world. Most of the armament factories were located in west the near the frontier, there were massive amounts of munitions in boxcars and even stacked on the ground near artillery emplacments. Much of the Red air force was located close to the border.

The 9th Army which had played a crucial role in the invasion of Poland and Finland was also present in the key area opposite the Romanian oil fields.

There were the "Black" divisions of troops recruited from the Siberian Gulags who were still in their prison uniforms in transit to the front when the Germans invaded.

The list goes on and on.

You don't mass your forces in vulnerable salients if you're preparing for an effective defence, you deploy them in depth behind well prepared fortification like the Soviets had with the Stalin line which Stalin abandoned and largely dismantled in 1940.

The Red Army was prepared for attack...it was designed for attack in 1941.

Stalin's intentions aren't a mystery as we saw after the war and the Cold War began. He also wasn't a fool, he just misjudged Hitlers intentions. He looked for signs he thought would indicate a coming invasion that he felt any sane leader would make, like preparing to fight during the brutal winter months in the depths of Russia. Hitler didn't make those preparations and Stalin got caught with his pants down.

It makes much more sense than claiming that one of the most clever and ruthless leaders of all time just somehow managed to concentrate most of his forces in very vulnerable salients where coincidentaly they would have been in the best position for a massive offensive. The most likely explaination is Stalin was preparing to do to Hitler what Hitler did to him first.

You don't place much of your aircraft, tanks and artillery up near your frontier with a potential enemy if you're preparing for defence, you do it in preparation for attack.

The same goes for the river flotillas(I think it was the Volga Flotilla), half of which was sent to the Danube where it would be a potent weapons if the Soviets advanced into Romania and further west. It was lost when the German advance cut off it's retreat.

The Soviets didn't begin mobilization in 1941 btw, they began industrial mobilization in the spring of 1939 and military mobilization in August of that year...and began military operations in September when the Nazis invaded Poland. These operations didn't stop, so how can people claim the Soviets were just sitting passively by waiting for the Nazis to attack. Stalin understood there would and could be no peace with the fascists or with the western free market nations, it was the whole point behind the communist revolution in Russia and the reason so much resources were put into building the largest offensive force in the world.

Conventional history is largely the cover story created by Stalin to mask his real intentions, it's not a conspiracy theory to believe he was interested in much more than Soviet security given his actions after the war...or the who point of Soviet style communism.

Also the Red Army units that did open their sealed orders at the commencement of Barbarossa attacked towards the West, they didn't have plans for a coordinated defence.
Your posts seem to be a determined effort to prove my observations (below) correct. They seem to lean awfully heavily on 'Stalin was nasty therefore he must have been up to no good', and 'anything that disagrees with my view is the result of a communist coverup/disinformation'. Got facts to back this up, or just 'this happened therefore it can only mean what I believe it to mean'.

While you're at it, do you have some backup for the bit I've bolded. How exactly did the Volga fleet get to Romania? Assuming they could, why use them rather than something closer? What was this 'river' fleet composed of? The only naval battle I can find in or around Romania in 1941 involved a Russian formation including a cruiser & some destroyers and took place in the Black Sea near Constanta (which was bombarded). Not a Naval expert, but I'm guessing that cruisers & destroyers are more likely to be part of sea-going fleet (perhaps the Black Sea Fleet in this case) than a riverine flotilla. Oh, one Russian destroyer was sunk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BF69 View Post
It strikes me that the audience for Suvorov's theories are the sort gripped by the inverse of the 'Good Wehrmacht' delusion. If the Heer can't be perpetrators of evil deeds because they possess great military skill, similarly Stalin must have been plotting the invasion of W.Europe because he was so evil. In fact, I suspect more than a bit of overlap between those keen to believe both theories.
  #44  
Old 18 Feb 12, 03:13
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Originally Posted by Mil_dude View Post
Based on what, the fact it was defeated on the field of battle in the summer of 1941?

It wasn't deployed for defence, if the Soviets had attacked first the same or worse would have happened to the Germans. The Red Army was simply hit in it's most vulnerable position and had no time to recover before most of it was destroyed or captured.

It had already carried out successful operation in Poland, Finland, the Baltic States and Moldavia. In the East it had decisively defeated the Japanese at Khalkhin Gol to the degree the Japanese never again wanted to face it.

As for the Winter War in Finland, few armies in the world would have even been able to operate in such a hostile environment, both in terms of the local climate, topography and fierce defence by the Finns.
The fact is that the strength of the Mechanized Corps (which were in reality armoured divisions) depended
A)on the number of operational tanks
B) on the number of operational motorized infantry and artillery
C) on the possibility of the supply units to supply tanks,artillery and infantry and to transport the artillery and infantry :if the infantry had to march on foot and the artillery was horse-drawn,the usefulness of the tanks was very limited.
What was the situation on 22 june 1941?
A)13 of the 20 MC in the western military districts were formed in .....march 1941
B)the average strength of the MC in the western military districts,in %of full TOE was the following
manpower:72 %:a MC of 2 tank divisions and 1 motorized division had a strength of 25,852 men
tanks :51 % :531 tanks (to much tanks compared to the manpower),some genious had ordered that the ideal tank strength was 1000
artillery :58 % ,only 100 for a TOE of 170,
motor vehicles nly 38 %(1983) of a TOE of 5218
The result was,that the MC were (as said the chief operations of the 5th Army) only infantry divisions strenghtened by a lot of tanks .
Without mobile divisions,no attack was possible.
These mobile units were all destroyed in a few weeks .
Some exemples of these powerfull MC:
the 17 MC (in the WSMD) had :36 tanks and 12 pieces of artillery
the 23 MC (in the Kiew MD) had 0 artillery and 5 motorcycles (while the full TOE of motorcycles was 1678)
  #45  
Old 18 Feb 12, 03:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mil_dude View Post

We're dealing with one of the historical profession's greatest liars in Suvorov.
Fixed that for you.
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