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  #91  
Old 17 Jan 12, 04:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki View Post

What about other energy sources like oil?
Oil and gas can be bought in Central Asia, Azerbaijan and so on. It is corruption ties between Russian and Ukrainian bureaucratic and oligarch clans that preserve the RF as the almost only energy supplier and turned Ukraine into one of the main source of income for Gazprom and Kremlin (due to energically-inefficinet industry that has been built under the USSR Ukraine consumes more gas than Germany.)

In fact all the business success of Gazprom in Ukraine, Belarus, Cenral Asia is built on corruption, collusions that damage the peoples' interests of those countries.

Quote:
Partial tolerance? Guess you are part of the 11%

Public opinion surveys are things that can not be trusted in post-soviet states. One should also bear in mind that 80 per cent of Ukrainians who agree to participate in all these surveys are pensioneers. It is a well-known fact here.
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  #92  
Old 17 Jan 12, 08:45
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Quote:
Oil and gas can be bought in Central Asia, Azerbaijan and so on. It is corruption ties between Russian and Ukrainian bureaucratic and oligarch clans that preserve the RF as the almost only energy supplier and turned Ukraine into one of the main source of income for Gazprom and Kremlin (due to energically-inefficinet industry that has been built under the USSR Ukraine consumes more gas than Germany.)

In fact all the business success of Gazprom in Ukraine, Belarus, Cenral Asia is built on corruption, collusions that damage the peoples' interests of those countries.
You had 20 years to get rid of bureaucratic clans, oligarchs and energically inefficient industry. You have democracy after all.


Quote:
Public opinion surveys are things that can not be trusted in post-soviet states. One should also bear in mind that 80 per cent of Ukrainians who agree to participate in all these surveys are pensioneers. It is a well-known fact here.
The were adults during Soviet tmes so they know how the things were and are not brainwashed by modern liberal lies.
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  #93  
Old 17 Jan 12, 09:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philiplaos View Post
They slipped it in. Interesting.
Some originality would be nice, they couldnt even dig up Lenin or one of the more bloodsoaked Czars.

So because Stalin was a bloody tyrant 60 years ago, makes whatever Obama is doing A-OK. And Russia cant say jack about it.


Quote:
The number of 60,000,000 of Stalin's victims
ascends to the Solzhenitsyn and was widely
discussed by the Soviet/Russian media
between 1987 - 2004.
That is beyond the realms of sanity, given that the U.S.S.R's population was about 160.000.000 or 170.000.000 before Stalin's big bloodbaths in the 1930's. Where the vast bulk of deaths under his rule took place.

Then you add in WW2 losses the U.S.S.R's population would've been waaaay below 100.000.000 because whatever you may have heard Russians dont breed like rats. Of course OTL the Soviet population was 150.000.000 odd post-war. And also it should be said the vast bulk of people sent to the GULAGs came back alive.
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  #94  
Old 17 Jan 12, 09:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
You had 20 years to get rid of bureaucratic clans, oligarchs and energically inefficient industry. You have democracy after all.

The were adults during Soviet tmes so they know how the things were and are not brainwashed by modern liberal lies.
Lol. There have been no liberal parties in government and paliament so there are no liberal lies in Ukraine. In the ex-USSR all the mainstream parties' declared programs are pure socialism in spite of the fact that these parties are owned by oligarchs and top bureaucrats just like Communist party of the USSR was fully contolled by several people


In Ukraine, Belarus, the RF etc. plenty of elderly and average age people are electoral zombies who do what they did in the USSR repeatedly and traditionally vote for Soviet bureacratic clans that promise the advent of full communism or some kind of "paradise". And these zombies have never tried to call to question those in power for failing to keep promises.

That's the Homo Sovieticus mentality, behaviour, attitudes that should be overcome if any of these countries want some progress.
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  #95  
Old 17 Jan 12, 10:15
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Quote:
Lol. There have been no liberal parties in government and paliament so there are no liberal lies in Ukraine. In the ex-USSR all the mainstream parties' declared programs are pure socialism in spite of the fact that these parties are owned by oligarchs and top bureaucrats just like Communist party of the USSR was fully contolled by several people

I see that you shares the opinion of many American members that in Europe everybody is socialist. In Belgium we are more socialist than in RF or Belarus.

Quote:
In Ukraine, Belarus, the RF etc. plenty of elderly and average age people are electoral zombies who do what they did in the USSR repeatedly and traditionally vote for Soviet bureacratic clans that promise the advent of full communism or some kind of "paradise". And these zombies have never tried to call to question those in power for failing to keep promises.

Electoral zombies ? They simply want a decent quality of life and tranquility. It existed at the time of SU but not today.


Quote:
That's the Homo Sovieticus mentality, behaviour, attitudes that should be overcome if any of these countries want some progress.
Say us what is your model citizen. His mentality, his political views.
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  #96  
Old 17 Jan 12, 10:18
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Quote:
That is beyond the realms of sanity, given that the U.S.S.R's population was about 160.000.000 or 170.000.000 before Stalin's big bloodbaths in the 1930's. Where the vast bulk of deaths under his rule took place.
Evil tyran Stalin was able to change the laws of logic, mathematics and everything else.
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  #97  
Old 17 Jan 12, 12:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS116 View Post
http://news.liga.net/news/politics/5...siya_opros.htm


При этом в Центре Разумкова отмечают, что геополитические ориентации имеют четко выраженный региональный характер: на Западе страны доминирует европейская ориентация, на Юге и Востоке - пророссийская, а в Центре ситуация постоянно меняется. Так, если в ноябре 2009 года 50,9% жителей Центрального региона отдавали предпочтение развитию отношений с Россией, и лишь 25,9% - отношениям со странами ЕС, то в октябре 2011-го ситуация была кардинально другой: 47,7% жителей региона считали приоритетным развитие отношений с ЕС и 29,1% - с Россией.

The Razumkov Center states that geopolitical orientation (in Ukraine )
depends on region. West is oriented on Europe, South and East - Russia,
the situation in the Center of the Ukraine is constantly changing.
In Nov. 2009 50.9% of respondents from the Central Region considered
relationship with Russia a priority and only 25.9 - consider a priority
relationship with EU, but in Oct. 2011 47.7 of respondents from the
Central Region considered a priority relationship with EU and only
29.18 with Russia.


http://ru.tsn.ua/ukrayina/opros-92-u...-k-rossii.html

70% опрошенных хотели бы, чтобы Украина и Россия были независимыми, но дружественными государствами: с открытыми границами, без виз и таможен. 16% - хотели бы, чтобы Украина и Россия объединились в одно государство, 12% респондентов считают, что отношения Украины и России должны быть такими же, как и с другими государствами: с закрытыми границами, визами и таможнями.


70% of Ukrainian respondents want Ukraine and Russia to independent and friendly states with open borders. 16% want Ukraine and Russian unite in one state. 12% want Ukraine and Russia to have the same relationships as with other states ( borders, visas, customs )

http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politic...rossiej/412244

Согласно результатам опросам, 82,6% украинцев поддерживают государственную независимость Украины.

According to the polls 82.6% Ukrainians support Ukrainian independence.
Interesting, I never heard that the changes was so rapid.
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Last edited by Erkki; 17 Jan 12 at 12:33..
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  #98  
Old 17 Jan 12, 12:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
Oil and gas can be bought in Central Asia, Azerbaijan and so on. It is corruption ties between Russian and Ukrainian bureaucratic and oligarch clans that preserve the RF as the almost only energy supplier and turned Ukraine into one of the main source of income for Gazprom and Kremlin (due to energically-inefficinet industry that has been built under the USSR Ukraine consumes more gas than Germany.)

In fact all the business success of Gazprom in Ukraine, Belarus, Cenral Asia is built on corruption, collusions that damage the peoples' interests of those countries.
Even if you may have some points I doubt that corruption in itself is able to create a demand for those items...

Now how would the transportation be arranged?

Quote:
Public opinion surveys are things that can not be trusted in post-soviet states. One should also bear in mind that 80 per cent of Ukrainians who agree to participate in all these surveys are pensioneers. It is a well-known fact here.
Can anything you disagree with be trusted?

From the article:
Quote:
With respect to views of the U.S., younger people in all three countries tend to give the U.S. a more favorable rating than do older generations. The difference is most pronounced when comparing 18-29 year olds with those 65 years and older. In Lithuania, for example, 82% of those under age 30 hold a favorable view of the U.S., compared with 61% of those 65 years and above. Similarly, about two-thirds of younger Ukrainians (68%) and Russians (67%) give the U.S. positive marks, compared with smaller numbers of those 65 and older in each country (55% and 41%, respectively).
In Ukraine, views of Russia are consistent across age groups. Among Lithuanians, however, older age groups tend to have a more favorable opinion of Russia than do younger people. For instance, among those 65 years or older, about six-in-ten (59%) express a favorable opinion of Russia as compared with less than half (46%) among those between the ages of 18 and 29.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/12/05/...organizations/



And further about that pensioners...
http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/12/05/survey-methods-21/
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  #99  
Old 17 Jan 12, 13:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Interesting, I never heard that the changes was so rapid.
I expected something like that.
You see one of the reasons Ukrainians elected Janukovich
was the hope of the part of population, that he is going to
improve relationship with Russia.
And in their understanding good relationships with Russia
should mean some economic benefits; cheap gaz etc...

Russia is more in talking about Slavic unity and common great past,
then in giving Ukraine economic concessions.
So, part of Ukrainian people who voted for Janukovich
for economical reasons is disappointed.


And it correctly most visible in the Center of Ukraine.
Because the West of Ukraine in traditionally Europe oriented;
East is populated with big % of ethnic Russians,
but the center is populated by Ukrainians, who are more neutral
regarding Russia.
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  #100  
Old 21 Jan 12, 07:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
Fine with me.
I would like to hear about anyone that was an adult under a Communist Government anywhere in the world.
Post here or PM me or anything at all, I'd like to hear from you about this before looking on other sires across the net.
What would you like to hear? I was adult enough under Communist Government
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  #101  
Old 21 Jan 12, 08:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
Lol. There have been no liberal parties in government and paliament so there are no liberal lies in Ukraine. In the ex-USSR all the mainstream parties' declared programs are pure socialism in spite of the fact that these parties are owned by oligarchs and top bureaucrats just like Communist party of the USSR was fully contolled by several people


In Ukraine, Belarus, the RF etc. plenty of elderly and average age people are electoral zombies who do what they did in the USSR repeatedly and traditionally vote for Soviet bureacratic clans that promise the advent of full communism or some kind of "paradise". And these zombies have never tried to call to question those in power for failing to keep promises.

That's the Homo Sovieticus mentality, behaviour, attitudes that should be overcome if any of these countries want some progress.
So mainstream parties are accepting fact that electorate is not happy with capitalism and its useless freedoms fetishism and has opinion socialism fits better their vital interests.
What sort of progress do you have in mind? I read almost every day surveys on economic situation in the World and cannot discern no traces of progress. Only recently France’s rating by S&P was lowered. Debts of main states in EU are about 80% of GDP while US economy with its surreal state debt is more imaginable than real. I wonder how it can be. May be main players have made agreement to regard US $$ as money for some time while existing World order and economy will die gracefully
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  #102  
Old 22 Jan 12, 05:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post



Electoral zombies ? They simply want a decent quality of life and tranquility. It existed at the time of SU but not today.
Most of its time in1920-1950 the SU was a state with its citizens living in abject poverty even in comparison with modern post-Soviet states plus it did not have any tranquility in 1920-1950s. Homo Sovieticus just have nostalgia about 1960-70 when he/she was young so it's more like infantile nostalgia about young age that partially transforms into nostlgia about everything that is connected to it including political system. A decent quality of life even in 1960-1970 can also be put in question. I doubt you would like to have that "decent" Soviet quality of life nowadays.
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  #103  
Old 22 Jan 12, 05:45
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Quote:
Most of its time in1920-1950 the SU was a state with its citizens living in abject poverty even in comparison with modern post-Soviet states plus it did not have any tranquility in 1920-1950s. Homo Sovieticus just have nostalgia about 1960-70 when he/she was young so it's more like infantile nostalgia about young age that partially transforms into nostlgia about everything that is connected to it including political system. A decent quality of life even in 1960-1970 can also be put in question. I doubt you would like to have that "decent" Soviet quality of life nowadays.

Quality of life in USA in 60-70 was not like it's now. We must not speak about things taken from context. The level of life is just one of aspects of general picture.
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  #104  
Old 27 Jan 12, 07:28
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I'm afraid the news reporters can be very, very misleading at times....

Here is good old Fox...

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Old 27 Jan 12, 08:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
I'm afraid the news reporters can be very, very misleading at times....

Here is good old Fox...

While I agree with your point, you shouldn't call Hannity a reporter. He isn't one, he's a talking head opinion show guy. And, while unsavory and blatant misinformation, he has more leeway to do that than a reporter. Though airing all those opinion shows does reflect on their reputation. And yes they do have their fair share of sketchy reporting.. but let's at least call people what they are.
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